The gloves are now off as our quest to find the Greatest American Distance Runner of All Time is now down to the Sweet 16 and the matchups are incredible. Who is a bigger American GOAT - Galen Rupp or Meb Keflezighi, Matthew Centrowitz or Jim Ryun, Shalane Flanagan or Lynn Jennings, and Jenny Simpson or Emma Coburn?
The only one that is debatable is Ryun vs. Centro. Rupp, Flanagan, and Simpson easily beat their opponents here.
imo Centro is extremely overrated - he is running in the era of 1500 championship style racing where its a 3 lap warmup to a 400m sprint. Sure he won closing in 50, but it was the slowest 1500 since '32 which had to have been run on a cinder/dirt track mind you. I think Ryun is also slightly overrated - his name has this aura around it in the same way Pre's does - but I think if you put these guys head to head Ryun runs the legs off of Centro.
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steevprefontlame wrote:
imo Centro is extremely overrated - he is running in the era of 1500 championship style racing where its a 3 lap warmup to a 400m sprint. Sure he won closing in 50, but it was the slowest 1500 since '32 which had to have been run on a cinder/dirt track mind you. I think Ryun is also slightly overrated - his name has this aura around it in the same way Pre's does - but I think if you put these guys head to head Ryun runs the legs off of Centro.
Centro is technically faster but I’d take Ryun over him
Ryan lacked what Centro excelled in, championship racing.
Olympic gold beats Olympic silver. Cento wins this one.
Comes down to what’s worth more, a world record or an Olympic gold. Most, especially world class athletes, say Olympic gold. Centro for the win.
On paper, times and championship medals, Leo M and Ryun are equals.
fgng wrote:
The only one that is debatable is Ryun vs. Centro. Rupp, Flanagan, and Simpson easily beat their opponents here.
I agree with you on Rupp. Don't know much about the women.
But I think Ryun vs. Centrowitz is easy.
Per Track and Field News rankings, Ryun was #4 in the world in the 1500 in 1965, #1 in 1966, #1 in 1967, #2 in 1968, #7 in 1969, #6 in 1971, and #9 in 1972. That's two #1 rankings, one #2 ranking, and a total of 7 top ten rankings. He also set the WR in the mile (twice) and 1500. He won a silver medal at the Olympics in 1968 but might have won gold if the race had been at sea level.
Centrowitz world rankings: #8 in 2011, #5 in 2012, #8 in 2013, #10 in 2015, #5 in 2016. He never ranked higher than fifth and that's a total of 5 top ten rankings. He never ranked higher than #5. His PR in the 1500 (3:30.40) is the 151st all-time best performance. That's less than three seconds faster than Ryun ran a half century earlier. His PR in the mile (3:50.53) is the 219th fastest performance ever. It is about half a second faster than Ryun ran.
Ryun retired from running in the early 1970s. He was in his late 20s at the time. If he were running today, he could have continued for at least a few more years as a professional runner. (Centro will turn 31 this year.)
Finally, we are 100% sure that Ryun wasn't using EPO, because EPO wasn't invented until about 1990. Centro may be clean, but unfortunately in this day and age we can't be 100% sure.
I don't think it's even close ... and that's if we only consider the 1500/mile.
If we consider other events, the gap widens. Ryun ranked #1 in the world in the 800 in 1966. He set the WR in the 880y in a time that was equivalent to the WR for 800 meters at the time.
This is an easy call.
steevprefontlame wrote:
imo Centro is extremely overrated - he is running in the era of 1500 championship style racing where its a 3 lap warmup to a 400m sprint. Sure he won closing in 50, but it was the slowest 1500 since '32 which had to have been run on a cinder/dirt track mind you. I think Ryun is also slightly overrated - his name has this aura around it in the same way Pre's does - but I think if you put these guys head to head Ryun runs the legs off of Centro.
Pre is highly overrated. Centrowitz is slightly overrated.
Ryun is not overrated. In his prime (1966-67) he utterly dominated the 1500 and mile in a way than no other American miler ever has, before or since.
realty real wrote:
Ryan lacked what Centro excelled in, championship racing.
Olympic gold beats Olympic silver. Cento wins this one.
Comes down to what’s worth more, a world record or an Olympic gold. Most, especially world class athletes, say Olympic gold. Centro for the win.
On paper, times and championship medals, Leo M and Ryun are equals.
Mexico City Olympics were at 7300 feet. There is no way any sea-level athlete could compete. Had the Olympics been held at sea level Ryun would've at a very good chance at gold.
Centrowitz has never run a mile or 1500 within the top 100 times in the world. Ryun set world records in the 880, 1500, and mile. Ryun's mile PR -- which he ran more than 50 years ago -- is less than a second slower than Centrowitz's.
Centrowitz has never ranked in the top 4 in the world, per Track and Field News. Ryun ranked #1 in the 800 once and the 1500/mile twice.
People have pretty much only mentioned Centro's Olympic Gold in this thread.
He also has a gold at World Indoors and a silver and Bronze at World Outdoors. And another 4th place finish at the Olympics. He's had a lot of success on the world level.
Know who the female athletes are but not enough about them. I know Simpson is a world champion.
It comes down to Rupp vs Ryun and personally I call it a draw. 2 different eras. both have medals
seasoned ranker wrote:
People have pretty much only mentioned Centro's Olympic Gold in this thread.
He also has a gold at World Indoors and a silver and Bronze at World Outdoors. And another 4th place finish at the Olympics. He's had a lot of success on the world level.
if there were a World Championships in 1967 Ryun would have picked up golds in the 800 and 1500. He probably would've medaled in the 1500 in 1965, maybe gold.
And Centrowiz is really an incredible runner, but winning the Olympic Gold in 3:50 when the field was capable of 15 seconds faster doesn't make it really as likeable of a performance in my mind.
I mean, they all earned their way to an olympic final, but then they jogged.
citius atius fortius
My take on Ryun vs. Centro is that Jim Ryun should have won Olympic Gold in either the 800m or 1500m, but only walked away with a Silver. He should never have lost to Keino. He was the WR in both events at one point in time. Centro took it to the deepest field in history and ran the legs out of the competition, closing in 51"
Really? Jennings 8 Global medals and Flanagan just 2. Come on.
AT THESWOOSH wrote:
My take on Ryun vs. Centro is that Jim Ryun should have won Olympic Gold in either the 800m or 1500m, but only walked away with a Silver. He should never have lost to Keino. He was the WR in both events at one point in time. Centro took it to the deepest field in history and ran the legs out of the competition, closing in 51"
I think you're a bit confused about what it means to run the legs off of a field. If that race had been held 30 years ago the crowd would have been booing by the end of the second lap and the commentators would have ripped them. He has the gold and we can never take that away from him but even Centrowitz knows he got lucky.
ShilohDoesntCare wrote:
AT THESWOOSH wrote:
My take on Ryun vs. Centro is that Jim Ryun should have won Olympic Gold in either the 800m or 1500m, but only walked away with a Silver. He should never have lost to Keino. He was the WR in both events at one point in time. Centro took it to the deepest field in history and ran the legs out of the competition, closing in 51"
I think you're a bit confused about what it means to run the legs off of a field. If that race had been held 30 years ago the crowd would have been booing by the end of the second lap and the commentators would have ripped them. He has the gold and we can never take that away from him but even Centrowitz knows he got lucky.
i think centro should have been a 800m runner. his tactics are first-class and would've been well suited for that event. he reclaimed the lead at a critical moment. had he not, he'd have been boxed out forever. even moreso, he kept his balance pulling off a difficult maneuver. it indicates that he has a high amount of fast twitch fibers under his command.
if you study that move carefully, you'll notice it was incredible.
steevprefontlame wrote:
imo Centro is extremely overrated - he is running in the era of 1500 championship style racing where its a 3 lap warmup to a 400m sprint. Sure he won closing in 50, but it was the slowest 1500 since '32 which had to have been run on a cinder/dirt track mind you. I think Ryun is also slightly overrated - his name has this aura around it in the same way Pre's does - but I think if you put these guys head to head Ryun runs the legs off of Centro.
I can’t believe people are still obsessing over the time in Centro’s gold medal race. Far more interesting to me is the quality of the field that he beat. It may have been the best ever... there was a race... and no one finished faster than Centro.
Tactically I think his win was more impressive than if the race had been won in 3:39 or something usual. He put himself in perfect position when the pack was extremely bunched up
AXC wrote:
steevprefontlame wrote:
imo Centro is extremely overrated - he is running in the era of 1500 championship style racing where its a 3 lap warmup to a 400m sprint. Sure he won closing in 50, but it was the slowest 1500 since '32 which had to have been run on a cinder/dirt track mind you. I think Ryun is also slightly overrated - his name has this aura around it in the same way Pre's does - but I think if you put these guys head to head Ryun runs the legs off of Centro.
I can’t believe people are still obsessing over the time in Centro’s gold medal race. Far more interesting to me is the quality of the field that he beat. It may have been the best ever... there was a race... and no one finished faster than Centro.
Tactically I think his win was more impressive than if the race had been won in 3:39 or something usual. He put himself in perfect position when the pack was extremely bunched up
Yeah, I mean if people want to pick Ryun over Centro, fine. I understand that. But it's always baffled me there are people on here who discredit his Olympic title because he only ran 3:50. He would have got the exact same medal if he had won the race in 3:26.
Guess who also ran way slower than normal in Rio? Eliud Kipchoge. Does anyone give a shit he ran 2:08 instead of 2:03? No. So I don't know why anyone would care about Centro's time either.
Gault, nice point about the 208 vs 203, I hadn't thought of it like that.
I wrote this in another thread, but if we remove Kiprop from results because he is a confirmed doper, Centro also has world gold and world silver to his name.
I don't really care about world rankings -- the real world ranking in a championship year is the place you get in the final of said championship. As such, Centro is #1 in 2016, #1 in 2011, #2 in 2013, and #4 in 2012. Even if you don't want to upgrade him because of Kiprop, he still has Olympic gold, world silver, world bronze, olympic 4th, and indoor gold. All of which are in the premier mid distance event.
Ryun has one such medal. Ryun fell in Tokyo, maybe he gets moved on to the next round if that happens these days.
I just don't buy the world record argument. It doesn't have the same legs as Olympic medals.