Peter Snell is the Greatest Middle-Distance Runner Ever. Change my view.

change_my_view wrote:

1960: Olympic Gold in 800

1964: Olympic Gold in 800 & 1500

Undefeated in Olympic Competition

World Record Holder in 800, Half Mile, 1000, 1500, Mile

800 Time of 1:44.3 (on a grass track... en-route to half-mile) still world-class today, and still continental record

Snell = Middle-Distance GOAT. Change my view.

The frightening thing about a lot of the amateur era runners is that they could have probably gone on a lot longer and won more medals and broken more records.

Obviously training intensely, largely part-time, takes it's toll. They had to fit their training around work or study, not having a free hand to choose 'active recovery' days and the like. Then at some point when they've achieved what they wanted to, they preferred to follow their professional career, continue their education, or start a business.

Peter Snell ran 1:44.3 on a grass track 50 years ago, when his training routine including running to and from work every day. That was from a population of 2 million New Zealanders. If you add Australia that comes to less than 10 million, producing the likes of Herb Elliott as well, running 3:35 in an Olympic final at age 22 and then retiring. Think of all the other great sportsmen Australia and New Zealand were producing at that time in sports from Cricket, Rugby, to dozens of others.

Kenya today has a population of 70 million, able to train full-time at altitude, dope freely with EPO, the entire national sporting output channeled into distance running. and yet they can't run much faster than white part-timers half-a-century ago.

An interesting thing about Snell is that he excelled (for his age group) in two different sports in his later years (orienteering and table-tennis). Guys like that could probably be successful at any number of sport if they pursued it single-mindedly. That's the genetic difference between Europeans and Kenyans right there.

its a good argument. also he did it without taking any drugs, there were no drugs back then. the top runners later - who knows

I don't know how often I've discussed this but it really comes down to Coe vs Snell. The Olympics is everything.

In the late 1970s, as he was nearing his forties and had been retired from running for years, Snell demonstrated his athletic ability by being one of the top finishers in the "Superstars" competition on TV . . . all without being able to compete in the half mile run because it was his "sport".

change_my_view wrote:

Undefeated in Olympic Competition

World Record Holder in 800, Half Mile, 1000, 1500, Mile

Snell never has held the 1500m WR.

He has had just three Olympic Competitions. Would he still be undefeated if he had competed in Mexico and Munich? Probably not.

But I don't want to put down his achievements, Snell definitely is one of the all-time greats in middle distance running. But I would not rank him as Nr. 1, mainly because his career just was too short. Coe's fantastic records and his much longer career at the top gives him the advantage in my opinion.

I agree, here is my list of the top five middle distance runners:

1. Peter Snell

2. Herb Elliot

3. John Walker

4. Steve Ovett

5. Steve Cram

I didn't include Kenyans, Moroccans or Ethiopians, because most of them are on some kind of sauce.

Blitzkrieg BLITZKRIEG wrote:

I agree, here is my list of the top five middle distance runners:

1. Peter Snell

2. Herb Elliot

3. John Walker

4. Steve Ovett

5. Steve Cram

I didn't include Kenyans, Moroccans or Ethiopians, because most of them are on some kind of sauce.

Elliott with an 800m PB of 1:46.7 on 2 and Coe not in the top 5 - seems plausibel. "I didn't ... because MOST..." . This logic is on a par with your list.

Blitzkrieg BLITZKRIEG wrote:

I agree, here is my list of the top five middle distance runners:

1. Peter Snell

2. Herb Elliot

3. John Walker

4. Steve Ovett

5. Steve Cram

I didn't include Kenyans, Moroccans or Ethiopians, because most of them are on some kind of sauce.

Coe does not make your Top 5?

sky wrote:

Blitzkrieg BLITZKRIEG wrote:

I agree, here is my list of the top five middle distance runners:

1. Peter Snell

2. Herb Elliot

3. John Walker

4. Steve Ovett

5. Steve Cram

I didn't include Kenyans, Moroccans or Ethiopians, because most of them are on some kind of sauce.

Coe does not make your Top 5?

Coe was doping.

Coevett wrote:

Kenya today has a population of 70 million, able to train full-time at altitude, dope freely with EPO, the entire national sporting output channeled into distance running. and yet they can't run much faster than white part-timers half-a-century ago.

An interesting thing about Snell is that he excelled (for his age group) in two different sports in his later years (orienteering and table-tennis). Guys like that could probably be successful at any number of sport if they pursued it single-mindedly. That's the genetic difference between Europeans and Kenyans right there.

First of all, stop saying Kenya's population is 70 million when it's actually currently around 48.5 -50 million (census in 2019). Yes, one of the bigger countries in Africa but still nowhere near Nigeria (186 million), Ethiopia (105 million), South Africa (55 million) or Britain (65 million). When we get to 70 million, we'll be a bigger pain in your sides, I promise.

Your bizarre obsession with Kenyans is, frankly, quite baffling. Did the Mau Mau evict your immediate family from ill gotten properties in the Kenyan Highlands ? Only about 20% of Kenyans live in the Rift Valley, yet this region evidently has a deeper distance running pool than the rest of the world put together. This, in a country with a nonexistent sports development program. What do you expect will happen when the government finally gets its act together? Ovett, Coe and Cram were lucky they emerged around the time when Kenya was coming off a boycott of two consecutive Olympics games which sets athletics in the country back a decade.

It seems that Coedeppe has found a new enemy with Kenya and East Africa in general. But we should not forget that the TWO FAMELYS of Elliott and Snell have "produced" runners who have set several World Records and won many medals. Just two familys! Compare this with around 200 Million people of East Africa (Kenya has not 70 Million people, but numbers and Coedeppe is something special). Coedeppe is close to complete his proof that in fact East Africans are just very bad in distance running.

DONE. You cannot resist the power if unagi.

El Keniano, we still try to argue with Coedeppe, but when reading his nonsensical posts filled with knowingly wrong "facts" we just should accept that a serious conversation is not possible with him.

Took me a while, but I know now.

change_my_view wrote:

1960: Olympic Gold in 800

1964: Olympic Gold in 800 & 1500

Undefeated in Olympic Competition

World Record Holder in 800, Half Mile, 1000, 1500, Mile

800 Time of 1:44.3 (on a grass track... en-route to half-mile) still world-class today, and still continental record

Snell = Middle-Distance GOAT. Change my view.

He never held the 1500m WR. The only man ever to hold all 4 (800m, 1000m, 1500m and 1 mile) was Coe, and he held them simultaneously, albeit for 1 hour.

Who were the great names he faced in those 3 Olympic finals? The depth in competition and number of countries participating was somewhat limited to later eras.

Coe faced Ovett, Cram, Cruz, Scott, Bile, Konchellah, when winning his 2 golds and silvers.

Snell's best run, his 800m WR, remained unbeaten for 11 years, Coe's 1:41.73 remained unequalled for 16 years.

Snell was amazing, and remains the only man to win the middle distance double, but Coe almost did it twice, and his overall career in other areas, just surpasses that of Snell's, IMO.

I'd put Coe #1, Snell#2, Ovett#3, Cram #4

said88 wrote:

change_my_view wrote:

Undefeated in Olympic Competition

World Record Holder in 800, Half Mile, 1000, 1500, Mile

Snell never has held the 1500m WR.

He has had just three Olympic Competitions. Would he still be undefeated if he had competed in Mexico and Munich? Probably not.

But I don't want to put down his achievements, Snell definitely is one of the all-time greats in middle distance running. But I would not rank him as Nr. 1, mainly because his career just was too short. Coe's fantastic records and his much longer career at the top gives him the advantage in my opinion.

Agree.

PeachyFuzz wrote:

its a good argument. also he did it without taking any drugs, there were no drugs back then. the top runners later - who knows

While I have no reason to believe Snell doped; I don't think he did; the suggestion that there were no peds around then is inaccurate.

There were amphetamines being used in sport from the early 50's as well as testosterone. The first anabolic steroids were produced in 1954, and the use, especially in the US (where they were first produced) and the USSR, would have been widespread from the early 60's.

Whats more, steroids were first tested in the 1968 Olympics, and that was more for research, as they weren't on the banned list then. They weren't made illegal until 1975.

So not only was there amphetamines and steroids being used in 1960 - 64, they weren't banned and there was no test for them!

PeachyFuzz wrote:

its a good argument. also he did it without taking any drugs, there were no drugs back then. the top runners later - who knows

Most of the popular anabolic steroids had been introduced by Snell's heyday, as had other drugs such as amphetamines.

There was no drug testing at that time, and the use of steroids had become "a thing" among some track and field athletes by 1964--primarily throwers and sprinters.

That having been said, I am extremely confident that Snell was a clean athlete.

On an odd side note, Peter Snell moved to the USA to attend UC Davis where he obtained a BS degree. Later he went to Washington State University where he earned a PhD in Exercise Physiology. He was awarded that degree in 1981 after starting his studies in 1976. This is during the time that many Kenyans including Henry Rono were attending WSU on T&F scholarships. I wonder if ol' Pete was involved in any of Rono's World Records that he set during 1978??