So doped records are bad - but records in spring loaded shoes are OK?

Urine idiot.

Well then so is Ross Tucker 'cuz he agrees with me.

http://sportsscientists.com/2017/03/ban-nike-vaporfly-carbon-fiber-devices-future-performance-credibility/

MarathonMind wrote:

Well then so is Ross Tucker 'cuz he agrees with me.

http://sportsscientists.com/2017/03/ban-nike-vaporfly-carbon-fiber-devices-future-performance-credibility/

There are no "springs" in the shoe; and yes, Tucker's hubris and refusal to be infallible type attitude makes him a borderline retard.

What science demonstrates that running on springs would be beneficial? Basically the runner and his or her shoes is a closed energy loop. Without an external source of energy, shoes cannot create extra energy for the runner.

So if the spring returns more energy, it also requires the runner to produce more energy.

Let's just ban all shoes that have unfair cushioning in them. Barefoot only.

CO= hr x sv wrote:There are no "springs" in the shoe...

Shoes Bad, MMMKAY wrote:

Let's just ban all shoes that have unfair cushioning in them. Barefoot only.

Would tape be banned too?

Shshhdnnd wrote:

What science demonstrates that running on springs would be beneficial? Basically the runner and his or her shoes is a closed energy loop. Without an external source of energy, shoes cannot create extra energy for the runner.

So if the spring returns more energy, it also requires the runner to produce more energy.

Not really. Animals that run faster than us use springs so we're essentially trying to alter our conformation to duplicate their advantage. I

You oversimplified wrote:

Shshhdnnd wrote:

What science demonstrates that running on springs would be beneficial? Basically the runner and his or her shoes is a closed energy loop. Without an external source of energy, shoes cannot create extra energy for the runner.

So if the spring returns more energy, it also requires the runner to produce more energy.

Not really. Animals that run faster than us use springs so we're essentially trying to alter our conformation to duplicate their advantage. I

I am no expert in biomechanics or physics, although I do have an engineering degree, so I would love to understand more about how a spring would work to "create" energy. Not trolling, I really am interested.

MarathonMind wrote:

Such hypocritical BS. So if it's a given that doped up runners compete with an unfair advantage then it's also a given that high energy return shoes are also conferring an advantage. Whatever the exact increase in energy return the new carbon fiber/"magic" foam aided shoes have over older shoes from pre-Adidas Boost, there is no denying that it has been increasing with technological advances and it is quantifiable and it is significant (Nike says it's as high as 85%). So let's just wipe all the POST 2005 records off the books until the high energy returns shoes are also banned. Seems fair. Who knows what Clayton, Hill, Shorter, Rodgers et al could have run with these shoes?

These Nike shoes have yet to show an improvement in the real world. The Adios boosts have performed in the real world but I'm OK with them.

sdfgdffgd wrote:

You oversimplified wrote:

Not really. Animals that run faster than us use springs so we're essentially trying to alter our conformation to duplicate their advantage. I

I am no expert in biomechanics or physics, although I do have an engineering degree, so I would love to understand more about how a spring would work to "create" energy. Not trolling, I really am interested.

Drop a pogo stick on end and a broomstick. Compare the two.

Which requires more energy to keep returning to the initial drop height?

A spring that returns 0.8 of the energy input vs one that only returns 0.5?

I'll take my answer off the air

It's not that energy is being created. It is being stored and then returned with each foot strike. It is reducing energy loss.

I've talk to a half dozen people who ran either Boston or London marathons this year in Vaporfly 4% shoes... All of then said the same thing. Their QUADS and/or Calves have NEVER hurt that much in their life after a marathon. Apparently some of that 'energy' is blasting right up their leg as well. 2 of them said they would never wear them again.

sdfgdffgd wrote:

You oversimplified wrote:

Not really. Animals that run faster than us use springs so we're essentially trying to alter our conformation to duplicate their advantage. I

I am no expert in biomechanics or physics, although I do have an engineering degree, so I would love to understand more about how a spring would work to "create" energy. Not trolling, I really am interested.

If you're a mechanical engineer or an engineer who understood dynamics fairly well, draw a free body diagram of the whole foot as it contacts the ground. This will show you that all this "spring" nonsense about saving energy is more of a publicity thing than working technology.

Running shoes have always been about shock absorption so that your legs don't break down as quickly while running. The only spring-action taking place while running is from the calves (and hamstrings i guess but that's not important for this rant) during ankle flexation, while pushing off the ground. So that piece of carbon fiber in the sole is really only a fancy shoe support, unless runners have been generating force by bending their foot in half somehow...

And before anybody approximates the foot as a single point, just remember that the ankle is a joint, which means, any "extra energy" produced by these shoes is then transferred to the calf muscle which means more atp spent to resist a larger load.

MarathonMind wrote:

CO= hr x sv wrote:There are no "springs" in the shoe...

The carbon fiber and foam behave just like springs- they return almost all of the compressive force applied to them. They are indeed springs, just not made of steel as one typically thinks of one.

so are asphalt and concrete, the difference is they bounce back up a lot quicker.

Try this simple experiment, land on your "spring-loaded" shoes and observe whether you bounce back into the air.

The result shows what use that has in running. The body accelerates at the forefoot point of contact on toe-off. The toe stays in contact with the ground while the body pushes itself forward in front of it. The shoe itself is not accelerating the toe forward, but even if it were, that forward acceleration would require the body to exert extra force to gain the same boost, otherwise only the toe would be affected.

Shshhdnnd wrote:

What science demonstrates that running on springs would be beneficial? Basically the runner and his or her shoes is a closed energy loop. Without an external source of energy, shoes cannot create extra energy for the runner.

So if the spring returns more energy, it also requires the runner to produce more energy.

It's not necessarily energy return as the big brands (mostly Adidas) claim, as much as it is reduced energy loss. The Boost doesn't "return" any energy, the runner just loses less energy.

I think there is a video on YouTube where an Adidas exec. talks about the science behind Boost.

I am a industry insider.

The foam itself cannot give you MORE energy than you put in. It the higher energy return of the foam the more you get back. It is a form of spring in pure engineering terms.

The Carbon fibre leaf type spring hidden inside the Nike shoes works similar to Pistorious's foot. I believe it works in a couple of ways, directional propulsive energy return, and by changing the human biomechanics. The propulsion was a word commonly used in early Nike PR that has since been removed due to the obvious negative connotations. Plenty of google evidence from

Nike spokespeople who mentioned the propulsive benefit then after the initial backlash changed their story. The carbon leaf spring potentially lengthens the stride similar to Pistorious at the end of a 400m once he got up to steady state speed. It also potentially minimises bending at the inefficient metatarsal joint transferring more load to the more efficient Achilles and valve artificially changing the biomechanics of the runner. These changes explain why there have been several Injuries in the shoes and complaints about sore legs.

However what everyone is missing is the drafting effect of the big füçk off TESLA with timing board that has been specifically told to stay 5m in front of the runners.

You can argue about the shoes but this whole thing is irrelevant unless they get rid of the pace car, and the jump in pace makers.

Classic Magicians 🎩 trick. Hey everyone, look over here at this shoe. Makes them miss out on the Wind blocking draft inducing TESLA.