JK'S stuff in relation to the 1500/800 type of runner

Here's how to resolve the "Lydiard vs. Coe" nonsense so the two systems don't have to be mutually exclusive: Use a Lydiard base and add Coe specifics later. Pretty simple! A runner will ALWAYS be able to perform better in a peak stage after having an endurance foundation which is built from the ground up, but it's also true that a 1,500m runner MUST train to become economical (in every sense of the word) at speeds which are different than those required by a 10,000m man. If I had my druthers, junior high school runners and high school runners everywhere would place FAR more emphasis on training at or below the LT, with only a minimal amount of training and racing at those lactate-intensive efforts. Of course, SOME tough anaerobic training is absolutely needed for both immediate and future development, but it's frighteningly easy to overdo this stuff with young runners.

Anyway, make sure all runners (MD through LD) are getting some strides a couple of times per week during even the initial stages of base training. Introduce some simple drills/plyos midway through the base training and progress to more advanced ones twice per week for a period of 3-4 weeks at the end of the preseason. Hills (either bounding or springing or just plain running on them) fall into this category. Drills which transfer easily to the running motion (e.g., alternate-leg drills as opposed to double-leg hops or box jumps) are best for developing neuromotor and contractile properties.

If you like, you can include some "neural training" such as reps of leg presses done as fast as possible using about 30% of maximum lift capacity. Stop them before the first sign of lactate accumulation becomes present; otherwise, you will begin negating the effect by interfering with efficient and rapid neuron mobilization. I don't really think this neural training is necessary unless you have a runner who has trained for several years and has stalled in terms of O2 uptake. Nonetheless, it can provide a little performance boost for some middle distance runners.

I like to have people do a 2-7 minute "time trial" at the pace they could currently run for twice the distance about once every 2-3 weeks during base training (at the end of a session of strides). This "one shot effort" will push the HR up to about 95% of maximum and will maintain some left ventricular strength.

All that stuff is window dressing compared to accumulating lots of relaxed mileage and a fair amount of threshold training, but it does make the transition to faster running a lot easier. It's always best to be comfortable and efficient at fairly quick speeds (for short distances of 15-30 seconds) in an ALACTIC state before trying to do longer distances at those faster speeds. The risk of injury is great, for example, if you force yourself to tie up on some fast quarters and your form is out of sync as a result of spending NO time previously at that pace WITHOUT tying up.

Anyway, those are some rudimentary ideas that can be implemented during the preseasons.

I have 2 examples of the effect LT/Tempo work has on middle distance type guys. The first is Kipp Ortenburger, who was a 1:52, 3:46 and 14:46 when we stared re-woking together. I really only included a regularly scheduled tempo run every other week in the fall, every 7-10 days in the winter and every other week in the spring versus what he was used to doing in college. Within 2 years he improved to 1:47, 3:39 and 13:49. In fact, his leg speed actually slowed. When he was running for me he couldn't break 50 for the 400, where in college he could regularly. Still he got pretty decent improvement with that one addition to his schedule, plus he got his picture in the bible and an article as well. He just reached the end of his rope and asked what he needed to do to make the next jump, tempo runs were it for him. The addition of the tempo work allowed him to run the workouts needed to make the jump, which is why you have middle distance guys do them. No way you can do 4 x 800 in under 2 flat without a solid background of tempo work and if you can't do that workout, chances are you are not going to make USATF's.

Fast forward 2 years to Christian Hesch. He started running with Kipp, Menon and Farm Teamer Darren Holman. He came from a Tri background and wasn't very well developed. We threw him with the wolves and he ran 3:47, plus got a stress fracture because he wanted to do too much, too fast. The next year we adusted and got him on a steady diet of multi-paced training that included a tempo run every 7-10 dayson a weekly mileage of mid 40's. He ended up with a 3:40 and 13:58 in his second track season. He also made the USATF 1500 final in Eugene 2 years ago. He felt speed in the form of low miles (35-40) and super fast trackwork was the key to success last year. He ran 3:46.

This past fall I basically advised 2 workouts for him. Weekly tempos and hills reps. He got a 29:29 10k pr off that with 55 a week. Not super high miles, but we're trying to gtet a bit more each year. Here's a kid who Irv Ray cannot understand. 53 400m speed and 3:40 for the 1500. It doesn't make any sense, but that what tempo runs do for you - they allow you to run closer to your max range for a longer period of time.

I can say without question the reason we are not very good at middle distance running in the US has everything to do with our (that would be us, the coaches) inability to impress upon these kids who read everything, but really don't understand what they are reading in the long range view of getting faster, what it takes to be successful in the 800 and 1500. These are distance events, aerobic events. It ain't speed, it's the abiliity to run 4-10 miles at sub 5 pace each week that gives you the capacity to do the workouts that will raise your ability to do workouts and race faster than you ever dreamed possible. Easy miles ain't it, fast track work ain't it, it's the 4-10 mile runs at a pace that makes you not real happy that get's you to the show. In the case of Kipp and Christian, if they were/are doing 4-8 mile runs at 5:00-5:10 pace every 7-10 days, I know they can run 3:40 or so if I can get the other workouts dialed in. If they don't do these tempos, god help them because nothing can get them the aerobic fitness necessary to do the workouts needed to run really fast. Not 120 a week jogging, not 36 second 300's, not plyo's or praying to Banister. I've tried them all on middle distance guys and got crappy results.

I just know watching a guy like Kipp run 2:00, 1:58 and 1:56 with a 4 minute recovery 2 weeks before he ran 1:47, 3:39 and 8:06 at Can Am in '98 was all possible because of the regular tempo runs he did to prep for it.

1500 basic track work and tempos will get you some pretty phenominal performance out of your athletes. Trust me here. Look at the Kenyans, James Robinson, Steve Scott, Seb Coe, Ovett and everyone else worth a darn if you need additional proof.

That's why they call tempo runs work, it's not supposed to be fun - it's suppoed to be hard. It become satisfying after you run faster than you ever thought possible and beat guys who shouldn't loose to you.

Joe

Very interesting 800/1500 training info. I do have one question. Once you have put in solid basework including tempo work and are ready for some faster work in preparation for the season, do you keep up with the weekly tempo runs, cut them back, or cut them out? What about during the actual racing season?

Thanks.

For the short distances (<5k) look to Joe Rubio's training.

For the longer distances (>5k) look to JK's training.

Both good for the ranges above.

Thanks joe for your examples. Just wondering:

- Since tempo work is obviously crucial, would you recommend, as I'm sure JK would, an early emphasis on mileage during base, in order to get the endurance to run more effective tempos later? Also, would you at any time recommend a higher density of tempos, i.e. one 4-8 miler + a session of LT reps in a week during late base phase?

And lastly, you seem to use 80o repeats as a gauge of fitness for the 1500, rather than the more standard 400 repeats. Just wondering abput your experience with one vs. the other.

Thanks!

Thanks JK and Joe Rubio-that really confirms what I know (especially after having met Joe a few years back AND after observing Kipp doing a tempo run on the track at Cal Poly SLO). If you know who knows whom and who is doing what as a result, then, yes, you know that Coe and Lydiard aren't that far apart. What was the Peter Coe quote that the middle distances are anaerobic superimposed over the aerobic?

I think that as a collegiate middle distance runner writing my own workouts, I stumbled onto a lot of this intuitively as I wouldn't even get on the track for anything longer than strides unless I could run under 60 minutes for 10 miles without killing myself. I figured that if I weren't strong enough, the speed would be a wash because I couldn't break 51 seconds in the 400. I think that a runner as fast as Coe was actually getting as much aerobic as anerobic benefit while running the 20 x 200 sessions because they were at 75% of his top end speed. Strength will get you to the line, but speed on top of strength is what gets you there first.

Thanks again for the posts-this is what the board should be about!!

You nailed it. Especially the part about impressing on young runners the importance of high-end aerobic development and teaching them how to do it properly. Preach on!

I'm a pretty simple guy, so I just tend to use a simple progression on things like tempos. Given the fact most have done a large number by the time the winter rolls around, I just maintain what we established the previous fall. So I'll ask for something tempo-like every week from the middle of December through the middle/end of January. This can be a straight up 4-8 miler at about 15-20 second per mile slower then 10k pace. It may also be something like 2 x 4 miles at MP for the first 4 miles and 15-20 second per mile faster on the second 4 miles. It can even take the form of a long run done like this: 60 minutes easy-moderate, 3 miles at tempo. We are fortunate to have the Cal 10 the second weekend in January that I'll ask 'em to do so I can get a true idea of what there tempo pace actually is. We also have a local 8 miler the weekend of MLK that we use as another tempo opportunity.

For middle distance guys I tend not to suggest they do more than one scheduled tempo-type workout a week (if they hit another day they feel good, they should go with it and run uptempo even if it's not on the schedule). Instead of 2 tempo runs per week, I'd rather see them do something that is closer to 1500 type work another day of the week, so say hill reps or stuff like 2 x 6 x 200's at 1500 effort. That get's them 2 workouts per week, one at tempo and one at 1500 effort. On top of that I like a long run of say 20-25% of their weekly mileage and a mid week longer run of 15% of their weekly mileage. One other day of the week is a speed enhancement day. Just something middle distance guys like to do instead of a plain 8-9 mile run which tends to bore them. The day looks something like this:

5-6 mile warm-up run finshing at a track. The head into 4-6 strides or possibly a mile of stride the straights/jog the turns. Then put on the spikes and run anywhere from 300-800 at a fast but controlled pace. Form should be solid, no going to the well on the effort though. Basically a classically run interval, fast but defintely at a workout effort. Pace for a 4 flat miler is probably 56 or so for the 400, 2:00 for the 800. They then do a 2 mile cooldown. So about 8 miles of running but in a format more appropriate for a middle distance person.

As far as how often we do tempos throughout the spring, here's the outline I've drawn up for the locals this coming track season. I have no idea how it'll pan out, but I'm fairly confident it'll work. Peak races are first off the Stanford meets in May, then USATF's in late June and Can Am for those looking at that. We also have a few indoor event's we'd like to do decent in, although that isn't as high a priority.

Let me know if you have additional questions. I'm done with my lunch now, back to the grind. Joe

All dates are approximate. % = the % of weekly max miles for the year:

12/14: USATF XC Nats

12/14-21: Recovery week, easy miles.

12/20-1/18: 90-100%

Alternate weeks between:

*300m hill reps (form, moderate, hard)

*1500 work: ie 2 x [4-6 x 200] 30 sec between each, 400 jog btw sets.

*MP/tempo runs weekly. 6-10 miles at marathon pace working down to tempo pace. Cal 10 is on 1/11, Castle to Coast 1/18.

1/18-2/15: 90-100%

*Alternate week between:

*5k work: 12-14 x 400 at 5k pace with 200 jog or fartleks

*tempo run: 4-8 miles at T or Ovett Tempo (4 miles at T, 1 mile at MP, 1 mile at 10k)

*Both preceeded by 6-8 x diagonal grass (150m) accelerations. Great form, relaxed/fast speed.

*Weekly 1500 work:

*2 x [4 x 300] 45-50 sec btw each, 5 min btw sets.

*2 x [3 x 400] 60-70 sec bwt each, 5 min btw sets.

2/15-4/12: 80-90%

Races: 2-4 indoor events, early March Stanford all comers, Poly and Stanford Invite. Possibly Fresno.

*800 work

*2-3 x [2 x 300]. 300 at 1500 pace, 100 j, 300 at 800 pace. 5 min btw sets

*6-8 x 200 at 800 pace with 2 min btw each

*Short Hills:

*8-10 x 100m short/steep hills solid 800/1500 type effort - high knees, powerful drive. Sand hills? Make a great picture a la Ovett.

*1500 work

*1500 simulation: 800 at 3k pace, 400 at 1500 pace, 300 kick

*2-4 x [2 x 400] 30 sec btw each, 5 min btw sets

*9 x 300 at 1500 pace w/ 50 sec recovery

*5k work:

*6-8 x 800 at 5k pace with 400 jog or fartlek (3 on/2 off)

*3-4 x 1600 at 5k pace w/ 400 jog

*Preceeded by 8-10 x diagonal grass accelerations. Great form, fast, relaxed speed.

*Tempo:

*2 x 800 at 5k pace, 3-4 miles at T, 2 x 800 at 5k

*Preceeded by 8-10 x diagonal grass accelerations. Great form, fast, relaxed speed.

4/12-USATF's: 50-60%.

Races: Mt Sac, Cardinal Invite, Cardinal qualifier, PA's, USATF's, Can Am.

*all preceeded by 4-6 strides, 2 x 150 accelerations, 2 x 200 at 1500 pace w/ 200 jog.

*All out:

* 3 x 400 at best effort. 8-10 min between each

* 2 x 600 at best with 10-12 min btw each.

*800 work:

*4 x 400 at 800 pace w/ 4 minutes

*5 x 300 at 800 pace with 3 min

*1500 work:

*6-10 x 400 at 1500 pace with equal time rest

*10 x 300 at 1500 pace with = time recovery

*5 x 600 at 1500 pace with = 2x time recovery

*3-4 x 800 at 1500 w/ = 2x time recovery

*5k:

*5-6 x 1k at 5k w/ 400 jog, 4 x 200 finishes

*3-4 x 1600 at 5k in/out style w/ 400 jog, 4 x 200 finishes

*10k/tempo:

*16 x 400 at 10k w/ 100 jog.

*4 x 1600 at 10k/T w/ 400 jog

*Lactate tolerance:

*3-4 x [600 at 1500, 100 jog, 300 at 800] 5 min

*2 x [300 at 800/1500, 100 walk, 300 at best], 5-8 min.

*Accelerations: Vigil's 200-300 drill, sprint/float/sprint 300's, 3 x 3 x 300's.

Great stuff Joe! Thanks for the input. We really appreciate it!!

Joe,

I once coached a masters runner who ran 1:58 at the National Masters Outdoor Championships in late July of that year. We did 4 mile tempo runs from New Year's through Memorial Day. He also started with 3 x 2 mile and 6 x 1 mile 10k pace intervals in January and by the end of May was doing things like 2 x 800-600-400-200 (400 recovery) at about 3k pace.

In June we worked on things like 8 x 400 (200) rest at 1500 pace and 8 x 200 (200) at 800 pace. By the last week before the Nationals he was doing 5 x 400 (4 minutes rest)in the 60 to 62 second range and 3 x 200 (5) in about 25 to 26 seconds. His 800 progression was 2:04 in early June to 2:02 in early July. He ran 2:02 in the heats and 59/59 in the final for 1:58 and change.

He had great natural speed and could still run 52 for 400. I believe what got him under 2:00 was the AT running and bringing his 1500 best down to around 4:17. He really couldn't run well above 1500 meters. Anyway, I am a big believer in AT running for 9 months of the year even for 800 runners.

Randy,

You'd probably like this article I'm reading in Eder's winter 2002 American T&F. There's an article written by Dick Quax on John Walker and his coach Arch Jelley. Here's how Quax describes Walker's prep training:

"During the general prep phase, most of the running consisted of long slow distance (6-6:30 per mile) and long fast distance (5-5:30 per mile) up to 100 MPW, with an average of 70 for 8-10 weeks. This routine was followed in the early days by Lydiard-style hill bounding routine. But Jelley soon decided to forgo this phases as Walker broke down. He also concluded that Walker, throughout his general prep phase, was performning a large percentage of his running at or near his anaerobic threshold and could therefore make the transition to a higher level, more specific training. So now his training consisted of being on the track 6 days per week, a testament to his remarkable powers of recovery. 2 days steady state or tempo running over 2-3 miles, 2 days anaerobic/aerobic running (15 x 200, 15 x 400, 6 x 800) and finally 2 days would be devoted to speed and speed endurance ( 8 x 150, 6 x 200). This type of training would continue with some variations for about 6-8 weeks."

This is what I was referring to earlier by saying tempo runs gave you the ability to do better workouts and because you are able to do better workouts, you race faster. (For what it's worth, the basic workout week that Walker did is what is what Horwill called multi paced training and what Coe and Aouita did).

In looking at my most recent British Milers Club Newsletter, there is an article on Rui Silva's training. This is almost exactly the training schedule Walker did including a heavy emphasis on tempo runs. Finally I have somewhere in my files a sample of James Robinson's stuff. A key component of his training in the fall and winter were regularly scheduled 4-8 mile runs around Lake Merritt at 5:00-5:30 pace. Same basic format of Walkers training, same basic format the Portuguese are using now to run low 3:30's.

This ain't rocket science. The majority of top middle distance runners around the world do a ton of tempo work. You think the Kenyans are kicking our ass with speed? They can't get a guy in our top 50 for 400, yet we can't get more than one in their top 50 for the 800. They simply do a larger percentage of tempo work in a week than we even consider doing in a month and they run substantially faster in middle distance events because of it. Don't know why many in this country think that 10 x 400's every workout will get them a sub 4 when the facts prove that a regularly scheduled tempo run is just as important at some times of the year and even more important at others. It's just that the 10 x 400 at 60 looks great on paper and for the rest of the team to witness. The real work comes in the cold, dark days when nobody is around and you need to get in 6 miles at tempo pace when a set of 400's sounds like a lot more fun. You get the tempo's in for no other reason than to get the aerobic strength necessary to do muti paced training effectively. If you do muti paced traing effectively, you tend to race very, very well.

Joe

JK:

What do you suggest as far as in season work for a miler?

Joe:

Thanks for the detailed reponse. The reason I asked is that a tempo every 7-10 days during pre-season sounds a bit light on LT to me, especially in light of the training of say, the Kenyans and Morrocans (and obviously, the Kiwis also). It seems to me that a good solid base would include as much near-LT as the athlete can handle in base-building (obviously much more for a young Walker or El G than a 46-year-old geezer;), plus some speed maintenance and weekly long run. So twice a week for tempos seemed more reasonable to me. However, in order to handle that kind of workload, I was planning on a month or two of mostly easier but longer running to get the mileage to 100%, then phasing in more LT work gradually. Does this sound reasonable?

I think we are both on the same page here, perhaps with slightly different emphasis (i.e. I don't plan on as much 800/1500 work during base phase- I'll wait until things warm up more in spring).

Also, still wondering if you see much difference in benefit to doing race-pace work during the Pre-Competition phase (right before main season)as 800's v. 400's? I seem to be able to do 400's all day long, but 800's seem to bring in the race-type stress more acutely (i.e. they tend to kick my ass!)

Thanks again, all this is in the forefront of my mind as the season plans take shape.

Best thread I've seen on here in a while. I have always believed it's not Lydiard OR Coe; it's Lydiard AND Coe. They are NOT incompatible approaches; the are complimentary approaches.

Well yeah sure a tempo every 7-10 days is light compared to many African nations BUT it is a vast improvement over what many currently do. The 7-10 is just a suggestion, if you can recover effectively on the other days of the week when a simple distance run is scheduled then you will feel strong enough that you'll naturally drop the pace and you'll get more tempo work the way it was intended. The problem is if you schedule say 2 tempo runs, a long run, a mid week longer run, a speed enhancement day and hill reps in one week, the athlete has a very real possibility of tanking. Just too much to do. Looks great on paper, the reality is that for many athlete not used to doing tempo work a little is great while too much is very bad (accute vs chronic stress). The idea is to incorporate a greater volume of tempo work annually. Tempo work is just like any other form of fitness, you need to progress the athlete within each season and from year to year. I've had good success with one scheduled tempo every 7-10 days through the majority of the season and one every 2-3 weeks during the height of the racing season for people not used to doing that form of work. As the athlete get's better able to tolerate tempo work, they start to run most of their other runs faster as the gain more aerobic fitness. I just try not to kill them off too soon cause if you take a 400/800 guy and throw him into 2 tempos a week when they aren't used to it, odds are they'll just run around the corner and hide until the team comes back a good 20-30 minutes later and run in with them.

As far as giving yourself 2 months to get to 100% mileage, why? I usually get them up to 100% in 2, maybe 3 weeks. I used to go with 2 months, then Vigil told me it was a waste of time as long as you're having them just doing mileage and it's roughly a figure you've run consistently the last year or so, no reason it should take you 2 months to get there. I've changed it to take 3 weeks now on average and everyone has done fine. So taking someone like Somers, she goes from a break to 90 in this fashion: 50-70-90. Another is Aeron, she was doing 40 or so at the end of XC (2 weeks ago), last week she was at 70 (her high mileage mark for the winter). She said that it didn't feel great getting there, but Sunday she looked great running 13 and said she was starting to get back into the grove again. In your case, I'd get to 100% ASAP, then get on the tempo work for the next month, so that means by 3/1 you'd have 1 month of easy miles and one month of higher miles with a tempo emphasis. Just makes sure to keep a steady diet of strides, hills and accerelations in there as well. Aerobic fitness is important but so is economy and you get the best bang for the buck on economy by running fast consistently. The thing is to run a fast 800/1500 you need great aerobic fitness AND economy. One without the other does no good. Base training should take 8, maybe 10 weeks, transition another 4-6 weeks and the racing season the final 8-10 weeks. If you're base is too long, you'll not spend enough time on race specific work to get the fitness in to use it because track season for all intents will be over. I need everyone to be ready to rock in May. Any later is not good because they aren't ready when all the solid, qualifying type events occur.

Finally, anything I do for workouts involves a progression. I do not just come to practice one day and tell the fellas, "folks, we're running 800's at 1500 pace today." They are well aware far in advance when they can expect to see that workout. We start with 200's, then go to 300's, then 400's, then 600's then 800's. It usually takes a good 3, maybe 4 months to get someone fit enough to handle that 3-4 x 800 at 1500 pace with 2x recovery. It usually looks like this:

Jan: 200's at 1500 pace in sets

Feb: 300's at 1500 pace in sets

March: 400's at 1500 pace w/ 2 x recovery

April: 600's w/ 2 x recovery

May: 800's w/ 2 x recovery.

Hope that helps. None of this is written in stone, it's just what I've used and had success with. If you have additional questions let me know. If you or your athletes run a PR because of my advice, send me a 12 pack of Sierra Nevada down the road or get it to me at Stanford the last weekend in June.

Happy New Years!

Joe

Exactly right Joe, it is a change from what we usually do which in college looks like this:

Monday-Long intervals

Tuesday-Easy run (and I mean too easy)

Wednesday-Shorter faster intervals

Thursday-Easy-shorter-run

Friday-pre meet-short run and strides

Saturday-Race

Sunday-Long Run

That microcycle usually runs from January until almost Memorial day and we wonder why development is stalled.

Nice job with the responses men!

Happy New Year

Joe, was that you at the Venue Sports table at the USATF convention?

So to incorporate more tempo type work, what do you think of one 6-10miler @MP and one 3x2M/4x1.5M @10k pace? Do you loose the effect by splitting the tempo? Is(n't) there a benefit to this as it allows for a slightly faster pace but still at/under AT?

Hey,

Great post. Thanks guys this stuff is great. Quick question though. I'm just finishing a 9-10 week base phase. I'm plannign on following Jack Daniels 1500-3000 meter plan for track. How good a system is this? How should it be tweaked/adjusted? I'm planning for a MONSTER peak in may/early june. I'm a senior in high school and have had a dissapointing carreer. I'd REALLY like to go out with a bang except I'm coaching myself.

Thanks SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much

Like Venti, I am going with Daniels' Running Formula. Is his prescribed 20 minute tempo runs enough, or should one go by miles (ex: 5-8) of tempo work. I'm thinking 20 minutes would be fine for young guys, but what about older runners as well?