Question For Hadd

Bumping this so Hadd can see it.

The key to Matteo's improvement was getting him to run lots of aerobic miles. He began with running at 160-170 HR (which was around 8.15-8.30m/m). He was instructed to keep his HR at this level (or lower) on the flat. It was allowed to climb on uphills, but he had to bring it back to 160± when he got back on the flat again. His father followed him in the car and he built up from 30 mins per day to where he could run 60-75 mins per day six days per week. (Always one day off per week)

Afterwards, he would often go home and go out later on his bicycle, evidence that he was handling the mileage well. He did this from Oct 01 to mid-Jan 02. By Jan 02 he was running 7.00m/m at 170 HR.

His easy running was then set at 150-155 HR and he had three days per week of "work" (Sun, Tue, Fri) with all else 60-75 mins at 150-155 HR.

One of these work sessions was a total of 60 mins at 170-175 HR, while two other sessions were faster to try and get him ready to break 5.00 for 1500m which was his big aim for the season. In a time trial in Jan he ran a PR of 5.22 (old PR from the previous June had been 5.36)

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Here are some of the key sessions he ran in the months leading up to his PR in June 02.

Date Session

12 Feb 8 x 400m in 1.28 with 75 secs recovery

3 Mar 20 x 200m in 40 secs with 60 sec recovery

31 Mar 6 x 800m in 3.04 with 400m jog recovery

9 Apr 12 x 200m in 39 secs with 45 sec recovery

19 Apr 4 x 300m (62 secs/200m jog) + 4 x 800m (3.10/400m jog) + 4 x 200m (38 secs/200m jog)

30 Apr 5 x 500m in 1 min 40 secs (= 79 per 400m) with 300m jog recovery

4 May 1500m PR in 5.04.1

14 May 12 x 400m in 1:26 with 45 secs recovery

21 May 4 x 600m in 1.58 (= 78 per 400m) with 400m jog recovery

4 Jun 2 x (4 x 300m in 58 secs with 100m jog recovery) and 800m jog between sets

7 Jun 6 x 200m in 34-35 secs with 4:30 jog recovery

10 Jun 1500m PR in 4.56.7

To this date, Matteo has never broken 34 secs for 200m. He is able to work with short recoveries, but is often unable to physically move faster.

Although he has grown a little bit recently he is still only 5ft 1in and around 90 lbs. We have had to cut back sessions every so often due to "growing pains" in his knees. I am wayyyy careful that he is dealing with the training and that he is not doing more than I give him (although he does swim/bike a lot if he wants to train more on any given day)

Hope this helps.

Thanks Hadd, that is some useful stuff.

In looking at those workouts, I ama bit surprised as this kid I know can probably do those without too much difficulty.

He has actually never raced a mile or 1500.

His fastest came in a workout with a 5:35 for the mile, but he recovered very quickly afterwards.

This shows me he needs to get in a race to be pushed to faster times.

I guess we should also add some EASIER aerobic miles, as he may go a bit too fast on easy days.

That is pretty amazing, though, that Matteo could go from 8:30 per mile pace on easy days down to 7:00 per mile.

I will definitely have to slow this kid down on his easy days, hopefully to see similar improvements.

was Hadd said was that on one day a week he would push his HR up to 170-175 (probably close to his LT zone) and when he was up at this HR he was at around 7:00/mile. On normal days when his HR was down at 150-155 I'm sure he was going much slower than 7min, probably around 7:45-8.

hope that clears things up...

Good. The key thing to understand here is the importance of the aerobic component of the 1500m. I was well aware when I posted Matteo's work paces that your runner would probably be capable of doing them with ease. But that does not mean he will also be capable of Matteo's 1500m time. Runners who spend most of their time on the track will blow these paces, but will often die in the third lap of the 1500m, losing 3-4 secs, and then just struggle home.

Martin & Coe tell us that 76% of a 1500m is aerobic. DW Hill (Energy system contributions in middle-distance running events. J Sports Sci 1999 Jun;17(6):477-83) tells us that in male and female university athletes the aerobic contribution may be as much as 80% or higher. Yet too many young runners focus on too many fast 400s. They do not realise that they come to rely on that recovery pause after each one. I am far from being the first to say so, but you must get the aerobic work right. Start slow, go long, and be patient.

Matteo's easy running is now 150-155 HR, currently 7.45-8.00m/m as correctly stated by HR. In a few more months, even that pace at that HR will improve.

I think focusing on the heart Rate HR is a good idea. Once in my adulthood, having not ran for something like two years, I decided to start running again beginning with a mile and a half. I was in muscular form to run a brisk pace--but after a mile I felt a bit heated up and decided to walk. That's when I noticed that my heart rate was much too fast--it was a wonder why I didn't keel over right then and there. Probably had I gone another 5 yards I might have died. I stopped partly because I had a pretty good hill to climb just then. Still it was kind of strange that I stopped because I had never failed to complete that mile and a half before and I really didn't feel THAT bad just before I stopped. But after I stopped is when I felt all kinds of pain everywhere--especially the chest. That was the hardest half mile I ever walked. I will never take that risk again--whether running, swimming, or shoveling snow. Shoveling slow is actually pretty dangerous. We just got snow here in Ohio--guess who will take all day to shovel it.

Hadd,

I have been reading up on HR training for the past month are so and decided to give it a try. Yesterday i went on my first easy run at the prescribed 155 beats per minute effort and i was at or maybe even over 10mins per mile. I usually run easy runs at 6:30-7 and feel fine. should i run at 160-170 for a while until my paces start dropping or stick out the 155 and wait for those paces to drop?

If your HR at 10.00m/m is 155, you are not "fine" (at least by my definition) at 6.30-7.00m/m pace. Can you imagine what your HR (and lactate) must be?

Hey, why imagine... go out and check it tomorrow and surprise yourself.

You are probably very young, with a high (200+) HRmax. Either come back and let me know your HR at 6.30m/m or just go ahead with your plan to run lots of miles at 160-170 HR (not higher). The speed at this HR will improve (look for change every 3 weeks). When it improves to around 8.00m/m, drop the easy run HR to 150-160 and continue, but add in two runs per week at 165-170 HR. More improvements will come.

what kind of pr's can a runner expect if he can run 6:00-6:30 pace at 155 beats per minute? hadd, can you give us some examples of your runnners pr's compared with their heart rates and training paces? thank you so much for all youve done already!

bump

Learner,

If you think about how you phrased your question for a bit, you will come to realise that it is unanswerable in its present form. Just because you know someone's pace at 155 HR (on its own) does not allow you to predict what they will run in any race. It could be the case that the runner's HRmax is 160... or 205, both of which would have a great impact on his race performance. Of course if you had asked for the runner's PRs when his pace at 70% HRmax was 6.30m/m, that would have been different.

What we can say is that the faster the athlete can run without activating his/her anaerobic energy system, the faster he/she will race (at least over 5k and up). Indeed, this is what the LT measures. And it correlates highly with race performance over the longer distances. In other words, a faster running pace at LT results in a faster race pace.

Another thing we can say is that if we put a marathon runner and a miler side by side at (say) 6.00m/m, there is every possibility that the marathon runner will have a lower blood lactate at this pace (and possibly a lower HR). Yet if we put them both in race over 1600m, the miler will win easily. So again, knowing someone's running pace at a particular HR does not tell us what kind of runner he/she is. It does not tell us of the anaerobic capacity (which really has very little to do with HR) of the runner involved. We cannot tell by knowing the HR of two runners at a moderate pace who will win if they race each other.

So, what do we do? Very early on, most runners can generally classify themselves as "milers" or "distance" runners. I am being very general here, and not suggesting that a 15 year old start training for the marathon, but neither should he be overly concerned if he is outkicked in a track 1500m. He should just recognise that kicking is not his forte.

I give the examples of Marco and Matteo below which as I have explained do not tell you much when you try to compare them to each other. Just note the improvement in each individual's aerobic running pace vs HR over time. They are not rivals by any stretch of the imagination: Marco is 17 and Matteo is a very young 15 years old. Note that in any road race Marco will easily run away from Matteo, but that if they were ever to go long enough (and slow enough), Matteo would outlast his companion.

Just train always to maximise your own aerobic ability. Note what I said above, the guy with the fastest pace at the LT has a good chance of being the winner in a distance race.

Marco HRmax of 205+ 1.56?800m PR.

10 Sept 02

150 ? 9.37

160 ? 8.32

170 ? 7.06

180 ? 6.20

5 Nov 02

162 ? 6.35m/m

Matteo HRmax 205+ 4.57?1500m PR

Oct 01

160 ? 8.30m/m

Jan 02

160 ? 7.25

170 ? 7.00

Hadd;

I am among those who thank you for your public service here- I hope you get some enjoyment out of the effort (actually, as a coach myself, I know you do!).

My question concerns the role of LT training for the 800/1500, especially during the base phase. I believe in establishing a solid endurance base, and ran well last spring off of a base of 80 miles/week in winter (4 weeks of 100+). I did a fair bit of LT work, but I wonder if I should do more. LT obviously plays a central role in developing for 5000 and above, but what about the middle-distances, which are largely about lactate tolerance? Will it still be good for me to put in a lot of work at LT (say, weekly 4-mile tempo, plus 4-6 repeats of 1-2 miles near LT, plus some "running to the barn" distance runs), or would I be better off to diversify my efforts during base-building w/ plyos, strides, fartleks, short hills, etc.. I look at it as a matter of how many "eggs" to put into which "basket". Obviously, I will do plenty of speed and VO2max stuff in the months after base and leading to my goal races.

If it makes a difference, I turn 46 today and am planning for a peak next August at our Master's Nationals. Thanks.

Happy Birthday!!!! :)

so hadd,

how long do you think it would take for marco to drop his 6:30 @160 beats per minute to 6:30 at 150-1:55 beats per minute?

also, is it possible for a young person to have a very low heart rate max?

bump