Can't break 17 5K. Frustrated and giving it one last shot. Looking for training advice.

IMO, I'd move down to 50 mpw....my coach has always said "slow, long running makes slow runners." By that she meant runners who do a bunch of long-distance running with little quality work were bound to be slow, and based on my experiences I agree with that.

Tell us your workout sched in detail if you could please, because I have a feeling youre not doing much quality work.

Check your diet

Hmmm, yeah, you should be able to break 17. What is your typical race strategy? And, how do your races usually end up going?

Also, and this might sound crazy, but do you live and race at altitude (above, say, 3,500 ft.)?

Hey!

Thanks for the reply.

Right now, I've just been running about 30 miles a week for the past three weeks on a treadmill, with some cut downs near the end. I've been researching plans online and trying to find something new.

The one thing I've always failed to do is good hard long run. Since my easy pace is 7:30, I'm thinking about trying some longer runs at 6:50-6:55.

I stumbled across this rather detailed plan that MIGHT work...it's three week cycle utilizing Daniel's Running Formula workouts.

Monday: 4-5 miles @ 8:00-8:30 pace / recovery

Tuesday: Daniels 5K workout - 2 mile warm up, 6x1000 or 5x1200 at 5K pace, 2 mile cool down

Wednesday: 6 miles @ 6:20-6:30 pace

Thursday: 10 miles @ 7:30 pace

Friday: Hill Workout - 2 mile warm up, 12x300m hill @ mile pace, 8 x 10 seconds up hill @ all out.

Saturday: OFF

Sunday: 12 mile run (progressive cut down to marathon pace)

Monday: 4-5 miles @ 8:00-8:30 pace / recovery

Tuesday: 1 mile warm up, 4 mile tempo, 1 mile cool down

Wednesday: 6 miles @ 6:20-6:30 pace

Thursday: 10 miles @ 7:30 pace

Friday: Daniels 800m workout - 2 mile warm up, multiple 200’s-400’s @800m pace, 2 mile cool down

Saturday: OFF

Sunday: 14.5 mile run (progressive cut down to marathon pace)

Monday: 4-5 miles @ 8:00-8:30 pace / recovery

Tuesday: 2 mile warmup, FARTLEKS @5K pace, 2 mile cool down

Wednesday: 6 miles @ 6:20-6:30 pace

Thursday: 10 miles @ 7:30 pace

Friday: Daniels 1500m workout - 2 mile warm up, multiple 200’s-400’s-600’s @1500m pace, 2 mile cool down

Saturday: OFF

Sunday: 17 mile run (progressive cut down to marathon pace)

I live at sea level.

My typical 5K race always goes like: 5:3X first mile, 5:4X, 5:4X, then sprinting the last .1

My diet is good. I'm 6-1, 157 lbs.

Maple wrote:

My diet is good. I'm 6-1, 157 lbs.

Your diet is not how tall you are nor is it how much you weigh. The fact that you think so indicates that your diet probably isn't that good at all. I'm willing to be this is all about your diet. That would explain the tiredness and fatigue.

Try finding a course that is all downhill.

No it actually is pretty good. I'm not lying. Lots of veggies, brown rice, chicken, fruit, steaks. I try to avoid eliminate sweets/chips and beer/soda.

Pizza maybe once a month and chocolate chip pancakes after my long runs are pretty much my cheat meals.

Maple wrote:

I live at sea level.

My typical 5K race always goes like: 5:3X first mile, 5:4X, 5:4X, then sprinting the last .1

My diet is good. I'm 6-1, 157 lbs.

How are you feeling after the 1st and 2nd miles? I'm kinda stumped because your workouts suggest sub 17.

The Daniels plan looks good especially the 1000s and 1200s. This is a very hard workout, but I'd maybe throw in a session or two of 2k repeats. Maybe something like 2 or 3 x 2k @ Vdot 5k pace (3:28 per k) with ~4:00 rest and then finish up with some 200s.

Maple wrote:

No it actually is pretty good. I'm not lying. Lots of veggies, brown rice, chicken, fruit, steaks. I try to avoid eliminate sweets/chips and beer/soda.

Pizza maybe once a month and chocolate chip pancakes after my long runs are pretty much my cheat meals.

None of that stuff is calorie dense or fast digesting. You need more pizza, more sweets, and more pancakes. Distance running takes a lot of energy. Like I said before, it's probably your diet. Now that you've listed your ideas about what a good diet is, I'm certain that's the problem here.

Why do you think all of energy nutritional supplements for athletes are pure glucose (or similar effect)? Why don't they have high fiber content?

Maple wrote:

No it actually is pretty good. I'm not lying. Lots of veggies, brown rice, chicken, fruit, steaks. I try to avoid eliminate sweets/chips and beer/soda.

Pizza maybe once a month and chocolate chip pancakes after my long runs are pretty much my cheat meals.

And even if that stuff was appropriate for your needs, just listing what you eat is meaningless. List how many carbs, protein, and fat you are actually eating every day. How are you in your 30s and don't know this?

First of all, if you can't break 17 after month of 70-80mpw and a well-structured program, I don't know if you ever will. You do seem to have all of the right elements in the Daniels program you describe. You might make sure that you are doing a few real sprints per week (or at least strides). Along with the hills, this will do wonders for your form and economy.

Second, don't be so fatalistic about your "last chance" being before your kid is born. Your wife isn't even pregnant yet and it's normal to take months of trying, especially if she's around your age.

More importantly, it is NOT THAT HARD to train after having a baby. Get up early and run, stay up late and run, run at work during lunch, whatever. It takes less than ten hours to run a slow 80mpw. One hour a day and two on Sunday and you should easily make 70mpw. You can do it if you want.

If you can get over yourself and run with a baby jogger, your 7:30-8:00 pace recovery runs are not going to be hurt by pushing the kid. When our daughter was a newborn My wife and I used to go to the track with the stroller on weekends. I'd do a workout while my wife read, and then I'd stretch and drill while she jogged. Most babies are taking naps way longer than 90 minutes so this is easy.

The important thing is that one baby is NO EXCUSE. Come talk to us dads when you have a three year-old and a five year-old.

Blahhhhhh wrote:

How are you feeling after the 1st and 2nd miles? I'm kinda stumped because your workouts suggest sub 17.

The Daniels plan looks good especially the 1000s and 1200s. This is a very hard workout, but I'd maybe throw in a session or two of 2k repeats. Maybe something like 2 or 3 x 2k @ Vdot 5k pace (3:28 per k) with ~4:00 rest and then finish up with some 200s.

First mile always feels pretty good - once I hit that 2.5 mile mark, I'm in hell.

BTW, these are local 5K's on roads, not on the track.

I, admittedly, am a coward when it comes to doing that 2K workout and never tried it. But will gladly run 4x200-200-400 @800m pace twice a week if you ask me to. My body handles VERY hard pace work at short distances, thus my 12x200 workouts.

My best 10k is a rather embarrassing 38:02 (and this came off higher mileage!)

There's more than one way to achieve your goal and several ways to impede it. Without being closer to the situation, it's difficult to know the best advice on what else you should be doing or what you should stop doing. Even so, this could well prove useful.

Run distance 5 days per week if you have a non-running day, or 6 if you run every day. Run all but one of them at a decently challenging but comfortable pace, say 7:00 per mile, then the next week, at 6:59 per mile, then the week after 6:58, etc. Expect this week's running to get you in slightly better shape and make the challenge a tiny bit harder on those days to keep a training component in there of the commensurate challenge next week, as this week, to slightly more in shape you. On one of the distance days per week, push it, bettering last week's time for that one workout by as much as you can without going all out. Think about all of the things you have to in order to run optimally at about 90% effort, pace, posture, foot strike, stride length, turnover, and mental approach with a nice strong kick in the last half mile.

Then, one day per week, run two easy miles before and after a track workout. Have a blank slate for your 200, 400, 800, 1000, 2000 PRs and go for one or two of them on the track that one day per week.

Fairly experienced runners sometimes lose sight of the stimulus/response aspect of training. They get a training response from a given workout, and then keep running it expecting more and more response. An 80 minute ten mile run can be impossible for a runner who has not yet developed endurance, then a hard day in his schedule as he gets in better shape, then a pace he could do every day of the week as he gets stronger, but after a while, there may be no new training response because the stimulus is so easy for him. The suggestions above have every day with a proper stimulus, not a declining one, or a vanishing one. The bread and butter distance days are fairly easy to do day after day, but never become too easy, as they go down a second per mile each week.

The one day per week 90% effort distance run is also progressive, building on last week's time, by some or a lot, an experience in dispelling felt limits and stimulating a greater training response over time. A good version of this is to run away from the start at a good pace, turn around at a half hour and then see how far past start you can get on the way back.

The one day per week track workout is an exercise in pure speed and pain tolerance, learning how to run at or near 100% and getting the training benefits from that exercise. It's also pretty cool to run fast over short distances at 34 and even better to set faster and faster PRs at these distances. I think a 5K PR follows logically and readily as you are consistently training a progressive faster you by training faster, as you improve.

Good luck.

Maple wrote:

But will gladly run 4x200-200-400 @800m pace twice a week if you ask me to. My body handles VERY hard pace work at short distances, thus my 12x200 workouts.

My best 10k is a rather embarrassing 38:02 (and this came off higher mileage!)

Ok, this ^ might be it. A 5k should really start hurting with .5 to go, but it looks as though you may need some longer interval pace work that will help in the later stages of the race. Your speed is good (12x200 @ 29-32 is no joke), so I'd focus on the longer stuff while maintaining your speed - maybe finish each of your interval sessions with some 100s or 200s.

I'd pick an early spring 5k to race and get a base time. Then use that time as a basis for workouts, following Daniel's running plan and his Vdot calculator. Race another 5k, improve time, and use that time as your next benchmark and so on and so forth. Like someone earlier posted, There's more than one way to achieve your goal. Just be consistent and listen to your body and you'll get there. Good luck!

Here's a link to the vdot calculator:

Have you tried to have someone faster pace you on the races?

my impression from what you've said is that you need to spend more time running at 5k pace. doing fast 200s or 400s aren't really going to help to that end. you have enough speed for sub 17 and your 10k is pretty poor by comparison. i would focus on doing things like 3x2000 or 4x1600 or 6x1000 with fairly short rest. this way you are spending 3-6 minutes per bout at 5k pace for a total of 15-20m which i feel provides an excellent stimulus to boost your ability to run at 5k pace. a few months of doing these once a week should get you your sub 17.

crete wrote:

my impression from what you've said is that you need to spend more time running at 5k pace. doing fast 200s or 400s aren't really going to help to that end. you have enough speed for sub 17 and your 10k is pretty poor by comparison. i would focus on doing things like 3x2000 or 4x1600 or 6x1000 with fairly short rest. this way you are spending 3-6 minutes per bout at 5k pace for a total of 15-20m which i feel provides an excellent stimulus to boost your ability to run at 5k pace. a few months of doing these once a week should get you your sub 17.

make sure you are running all reps at an even pace. you don't want to do 6x1k starting at 3:10 and finishing at 3:30. this means you have to be controlled - which is something you have to be able to do in the race itself also (thus providing another training benefit)

You try too hard.

Stop this endless 5k-pace work. Run 6-7x1000 at your 10k speed with a 200 jog recovery. Tack on a few 200's at 32 or some hill reps of same intensity. That's all you need to keep your speed intact. 12x200 is a waste of time when you already have a good speed.

Same with your "tempos". 4 miles at faster than your 10k pace isn't a tempo, it's a test run.

Read wejo's "why I sucked" article, malmo's writings about tempos, and Tinman's or Kellogg's general advice on stamina building. That's what you need, not even harder workouts.

A few weeks of workouts adapted to your level will probably suffice if you're able to relax and trust yourself. But with that kind of mindset I suspect you have, it often takes a lot longer. Many will never get it.