Eddie Owens (m17) 1:07.38

the highschool runner wrote:

m17 year old ran a 1:07.38 today. Two months ago he ran a 1:11. Anyone know if this is the junior record?

It's not even in the same zip code. I think the jr record belongs to Wanjiru, either at 59:16. If JR records are under 20, then it's 58:53 by Wanjiru as well.

oh please wrote:

the highschool runner wrote:

m17 year old ran a 1:07.38 today. Two months ago he ran a 1:11. Anyone know if this is the junior record?

It's not even in the same zip code. I think the jr record belongs to Wanjiru, either at 59:16. If JR records are under 20, then it's 58:53 by Wanjiru as well.

I think he's talking about the American Junior Record. And I think Jay O' Keefe holds the record at 1:04:42 back from 1983.

oh please wrote:

the highschool runner wrote:

m17 year old ran a 1:07.38 today. Two months ago he ran a 1:11. Anyone know if this is the junior record?

It's not even in the same zip code. I think the jr record belongs to Wanjiru, either at 59:16. If JR records are under 20, then it's 58:53 by Wanjiru as well.

If the requirement is that the runner needs to be under the age of 20 then you've got to be out of your mind.

oh please wrote:

the highschool runner wrote:

m17 year old ran a 1:07.38 today. Two months ago he ran a 1:11. Anyone know if this is the junior record?

It's not even in the same zip code. I think the jr record belongs to Wanjiru, either at 59:16. If JR records are under 20, then it's 58:53 by Wanjiru as well.

Oh please, get a grip. As the other poster said he's talking about the AR. Jr records are times that are run in a year where you are under 20 and aren't turning 20 that year. Obviously you are just an F'tard.

It's a great run regardless, and worth reporting on since he's one of the nations best (8th at footlocker) who is going a slightly different route than others it seems.

Retardalert. wrote:

...

Oh please, get a grip. As the other poster said he's talking about the AR. Jr records are times that are run in a year where you are under 20 and aren't turning 20 that year. Obviously you are just an F'tard.

It's a great run regardless, and worth reporting on since he's one of the nations best (8th at footlocker) who is going a slightly different route than others it seems.

Allow me to quote the OP:

"Anyone know if this is the junior record?"

I'm by no means a genius, but I'm pretty sure that the OP did not ask for the American junior record.

It's also not an especially brilliant time for an American under 20 years of age.

It's not a brilliant time? Unless anyone can prove differently, he just ran the fastest time for an American 17 year old, EVER, breaking Tom Hunts record from 1975. Can the person above show me the records for O'Keefe, as a 17 year old? Or maybe he meant high schoole-er?

Eddie Owens ran a spectacular race & time - nobody can ever take that away from him, nor should they.... was it an American Record for a 17yo? Who can say, definitely not his coach, and definitely not the Letsrun crowd, but submit his time to USATF and let them figure it out.

What I do know is that the NYC Half is a point to point race with a net downhill (approx 170') that is substantial, and the 2011 race had a 12mph north wind (per NYRR website). This tailwind had no effect on the opening 6 miles since Central Park is a loop, but it definitely played a huge effect on the remaining 7.1 miles as a strong tailwind. Eddie ran his first 10K in 31:58 (5:08 pace) and his last 6.9M in 35:36 (5:09 pace). Pretty perfect pacing, but based on what he did at Footlocker 15:25 (4:58 pace), a race he tapered for, there is no way he should be able to run a race over four times as long only 10 secs/mile slower. And add to it he even recently said he hasn't done true Half Marathon training, you begin to wonder how much the course conditions played into it.

An online calculator adapted from Jack Daniel's research shows that wind played a huge part in this final time.

http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html

A 12mph tail wind producing a 5:09 pace would be the equivalent running effort of a 5:31 pace with zero wind. Now unless you're running indoors, there will always be wind - it could be either a headwind that will slow the pace or a tailwind that will increase it, but for the purpose of this post, let's look at either a zero wind or a nominal 5mph tailwind. A Zero wind would have increased Eddie's pace and added on average another 22 secs/mile for 6.9 miles, or 151.8sec (2:31) making his time a 1:10:09 which is definitely within his ability as a PR race a few months after Footlocker (he ran a 1:11 Half in Central Park in January). If the tailwind was 5mph, it would have been an equivalent pace of 5:20, 11 secs slower over 6.9miles adding 75.9secs (1:16) making his time 1:08:54 - this time, is potentially doable but more of a stretch for his abilities especially when not doing proper training for the event.

Why do I think this is so significant??? Because I know far too many people that ran 4-5 minute PR's yesterday on the NYC Half Course, and while they are all in great shape, it's very rare to pop a PR of such significance when other races/workouts do not indicate such a monumental jump in ability (going from a 1:30 to a 1:26, a 1:36 to a 1:32, or being injured and wanting to run an easy 1:27-1:30 and instead running a 1:22, or having only done 2 recent long runs and still getting a 2 sec PR of 1:30, the list goes on.) Also, statistically speaking, based on their paces, they all dropped their times roughly the same amount. But I digress, these are only anecdotes showing that other runners had similar crazy PR's.

Back to Eddie.... one final note..... in 1994, Bob Kempainen Ran a 2:08 at Boston which would have been the American record at the time but was never ratified because of the tailwind involved in the race. Sure it was a stronger wind than at the NYC Half, but it was also a downhill, point-to-point race, and those three factors kept him from the record. Just saying....

some of my teammates pr'd or were close to their pr's yesterday, but they did not run much faster than at Grete's, which goes twice and a bit more around Central Park, instead of finishing downtown. This course is probably a bit slower than the Philly Distance Run.

M.D. wrote:

die ran his first 10K in 31:58 (5:08 pace) and his last 6.9M in 35:36 (5:09 pace). Pretty perfect pacing, but based on what he did at Footlocker 15:25 (4:58 pace), a race he tapered for, there is no way he should be able to run a race over four times as long only 10 secs/mile slower. And add to it he even recently said he hasn't done true Half Marathon training, you begin to wonder how much the course conditions played into it.

The post was too long, so I didn't read it all, but the above is one of the more idiotic things I have ever read on here. Maybe I should be more forgiving as it just another instance in a long line of people that have never done something speculating on people that actually do it.

For anyone that has ever run both road races and cross country races, it is not a stretch to imagine running a substantially longer road race at a pace a touch slower than a cross race because the surfaces are so much different. I suspect 100% of people run a track 10k at a faster pace than a cross 8k. This is an example of that same phenomenon.

deraylicious wrote:

I suspect 100% of people run a track 10k at a faster pace than a cross 8k. This is an example of that same phenomenon.

Yep, in a track 10k you should be going through 8000m much faster than your best XC times.

jjjjjjjjj, for once we agree!

M.D., you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The conditions were GREAT yesterday, but if you're telling me that the wind made a difference of 4:00-5:00 on my time yesterday, you're also telling me that I'm "really" in close to 1:20 shape (ran 1:14:55 yesterday) "without a wind".

Considering 1:20 is my marathon pace (ran 2:40:44 in Chicago this past fall), and I am world's fitter then when I did that, I think you're a bit off.

I had a rough day yesterday (thought I was in 1:13:high shape), so not EVERYONE ran ridiculous. Meb, Abdi and Hall certainly didn't.

I would say the NYC Half course is a solid course to run fast on, but is still probably a tad slower then a flat course like Philly, Houston, or even the New Haven 20k (I know, not a half, but a race I can speak to since I've run it).

Though there is a net downhill, the north part of the park and the west side disrupt your rhythm enough to negate the downhill effect. I know PERSONALLY, I would rather have little variation and flat rather then the net downhill that the NYC Half provides.

Nobody said you cannot run a 10K track race with a similar pace to an 8K XC race. Eddie ran only 5 kilometers at Footlocker, NOT 8K, and that is a huge difference when tapered from the effort required to run 21.1 kilometers coming off of indoor track workouts. Plus you're ignorant to think that the 6M loop of Central Park is similar to a flat 10K track race - it isn't at all since there are many qtr mile hills with grades of 3.5%-4.5%.

So after running a tough 10K on more than just rolling hills, Eddie maintained the same pace for another 6.9 miles. This was because of a 12mph tailwind.

Perhaps you should have read the entire post rather than cherry-picking parts of it and you would have learned something about race performance and wind-aided conditions.

5k or 8k, 10k or 21k, doesn't effen matter. Point being is that times in cross country mean nothing. Nothing. It has been rehashed over and over again. Balboa park has some hills, its grass, etc. Plus 10sec/mile is significant. So really, footlocker means nothing, it wasn't a good point. Eddie did a fine job and should be congratulated. Bye hater.

No Conto, the analysis I did was based on Owen's time and people I know that ran it. People I know ran 4-5 minutes faster than their previous PR's, and I'd wager that 3 minutes is closer to what they benefitted from since they were in the high 1:20's and low 1:30s.

While you are fitter than you were for Chicago, did you taper for NYC Half the same way you did for the marathon, or was it a mini-taper, or did you train through it? You even said you ran a rough race yesterday, so maybe it just wasn't your day regardless and without the wind you would have laid an egg compared to what shape you felt you could run. As a coach you should know this is always possible - sometimes things just don't click even if you think you're ready.

Check out the calculator I linked to in my post above. I guarantee that the work and research that Jack Daniels did, which the calculator IS based on, is a hell of a lot more grounded in science than any "opinions" people on Letsrun like to post as rules of thumb.

FWIW, in a 100m race, times don't even count toward records if the wind is greater than 2m/sec, which translates to 7200m/hour or a 7.2mph wind. If the wind along the 4 miles of West Side Highway was 12mph with larger gusts, that definitely can affect a pace.

7200m/h is about 4.5 mph....but I guess that just proves your point even more.

YOU ARE IGNORANT MD WHAT DOES MD EVEN STAND FOR, OBVIOUSLY NOT A DOCTOR!

I SAW EDDIE OWENS RUN A 1:10 HALF MARATHON IN 10 DEGREE WEATHER THIS YEAR, WINDY, ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED THE FIELD AT THE MANHATTAN HALF! (two loops of central) That race got HIM INVITED TO RUN THE NYC HALF AND YES HAD A GREAT P.R. BUT YOU ARE NOT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION THE INDIVIDUAL TALENTS OF CERTAIN RUNNERS...

you keep on talking about formula after formula and using such stupid examples of people having 4 to 5 minute pr's, when the examples you use are people that are running slow 1:30 half marathons... (no offense to those types of runners) LISTEN MAN BETWEEN ME AND YOU I HAVE PHYSICALLY GONE ON RUNS WITH HIM ON THE SAME WEST SIDE HIGHWAY as the race. We are AT MY TEMPO PACE CRUISING AT 5:20'S IM STRUGGLING WORKING MY ASS OFF AND THIS KID IS HOPPING OVER GARBAGE CANS, signs, every possible thing he could hop over under 3 feet tall, HE IS BY THE WAY A STEEPLECHASER, this kid is the real deal, huge engine and out of everyone in his national senior class, with maybe the few exceptions, HE IS BUILT FOR LONG RUN!!!! I HAVE A DIAGNOSIS FOR YOU Mr. M.D. I think you have a condition known as omega male syndrome, (last male or in this case least male syndrome) when certain men have this condition they act irrationally around males who are physically superior to them, IN THIS CASE THIS MALE IS 17 YEARS OLD!!!

@JPM,

I assume you're JP Montes, Eddie's other coach, so that would be the reason you're so up in arms and name calling. I never once said Eddie didn't run a great race - in fact I said he ran a spectacular race and time.

I think your race yesterday probably also proves my point that the wind played a huge part, didn't you set about a 3-1/2 minute PR too?

If you took the time to use the formulas I posted, you'd probably also understand why a tailwind has such a beneficial effect to a race time - otherwise, this Omega Male Syndrome you're talking about must must be a reflection of your mental abilities.

hey lets just all look forward to watching him race for Princeton the next 4 years.

omega male:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=omega%20male

sounds like a compliment.