Questions for malmo regarding his summer

Here's my best shot:

1. look, the more the better. You can always run less and not improve as much. Your choice.

2. You can train alone, but statistically I'd say you would be better off joining a team for workouts.

3. You need to make each run have a purpose. Recovery runs can be 745-800, but not all the time. Train at all paces, from 200s to slow recovery runs.

4. Well, most competitors will increase their workout intensity and length as the season starts. Idea is to improve toward a big race. You might want to pick out a race in October and build toward it, increasing your workouts in the leadup to it.

Thank you for your input.

Bump to make sure malmo sees this.

In reference to #4, the "real work" is longer repetitions at race pace. 800's, 1000's, 1200's, 1600's at 5k for example. You can keep the 2 workouts per week but they start to get dialed up a notch.

student, you fail.

if running is a chore you shouldn't be doing it.

if the work outs are more than your body can handle you are NOT RUNNING WITHIN YOURSELF.

hang up the shoes and get the world of warcraft. hey, you can even do that or alone.

So, basically, if I read you right, you want to do summer of Malmo without summer of Malmo. Okay. Question number 4 is something I've wondered about as well, but with respect to the doubles, they will allow you to run a faster pace, despite the higher mileage (SOM is all about feel, however). You hate the second run. Then make the first run the easy, short run, and the second run the harder, longer run. If your workout run is the first run of the day, then the second will be tough. If your workout run is the second, then the first will be easy and you will be particularly ready for the second one.

Also, nap a lot and that evening run will often be a good one.

In response to some things so far:

It is not that I don't enjoy running. It is the 2nd run in particular that I do not enjoy. 1) it feels like a chore, like "i've already ran today, why do I have to again?" and 2) i always feel terrible and very sore on the second run of the day, whether it is a workout, whether it is another easy run, or even if i took the morning 3-4 miler easy. so it's almost like i am guaranteed to feel terrible for 6-7 miles on the afternoon run, and that is not fun to look forward to. if i knew there was a way I could feel good, or even just average on the second run, I would look forward to it a lot more. so, while i am supposed to be running a faster pace because i am splitting the miles into 2 runs, it usually does not work out that way because of how poor i feel on the second run.

instead of running a 3/4-6 double 3 times a week (which would probably be what I would do) i would much rather just run 8-9 miles every non workout day, have a long run of 13, and then do workout days as singles and perform the workouts accordingly.

however, i really would like to run doubles, because i do know that they have a great potential to help. So, another question: Is it normal, that when someone first starts running doubles, they they feel terrible? has anyone else had similar experiences when they first started? how long does it take to go away. I am posting this off of about 1.5 months experience (twice a week).

These are legitimate questions from a somewhat novice runner - refreshingly honest.

the OP wrote:

however, i really would like to run doubles, because i do know that they have a great potential to help. So, another question: Is it normal, that when someone first starts running doubles, they they feel terrible? has anyone else had similar experiences when they first started? how long does it take to go away. I am posting this off of about 1.5 months experience (twice a week).

Frankly, I didn't have that experience when I did doubles. I was able to add about 20mpw and it was so easy, it felt like stealing.

But people are different. Is there any way that you could make the first session (if it's just going to be general aerobic work anyway) some kind of alternate-aerobic activity? Or the second, I suppose? (Pool work, after running earlier in the day, often feels great.)

The fact that you really don't look forward to a second running session--if you basically enjoy running, have been running for some years, are pretty well motivated, etc.--you should probably regard as a physical signal. You may just not be physically ready for them. And if you force yourself through the second session, the fact that you're not happy about may distract you and make you trip or whatever. (Basically, you should rarely or never force your running.)

The one thing I can suggest that *has* worked for some people: make the workout days your double-session days. If you're going to be doing some 200s in the p.m., say--and I *really* urge you to get a partner(s) for doing them--then just go for a 20-30min a.m. run, with a few pickups toward the end of the run (or afterward). This often makes the later track work much smoother and more enjoyable.

1. initially second run will require some getting use to. Some adapt easily but many feel exactly the way you do, mentally and physically. Do it faithfully and that will dissipate.

2. Do the doubles

3. Do the doubles

and

4. Do the ....

If running is a chore then stop and take up another hobby. Running is for everyone. Face facts, it's probably not for you. On the other hand, perhaps your approach to running just needs some tweaking. Oncve you start liking the sport again, perhaps it won't be a chore anymiore?

It's not essential if you have already channeled the the spirit of SOM. I'm reminded often that most of you aren't having the same positive experience from running that I had, so it might be a good idea to replicate it. The point of getting a group together is to rely on each other to show up twice a week. If you have a commitment from each other it's much more likely that you'll follow up throughout the Summer.

No, it would be the opposite. By running more you will elevate yourself to a higher level of fitness, therefore your running paces will get faster.

If you aren't getting it at this point then you need to go back and read SOM. Read what it says, not what you want it to say.

These two workouts should feel easy. You should feel incredibly invigorated afterward, not exhausted. I realize this is an alien experience for many of you but listen to me and understand the whole point of SOM.

This began over 10 years ago about this time of year when the usual knuckleheads wanted to know a secret program that would prepare them for cross country. I knew the answer because I had thought about it for decades. Knowing that you guys have just come off a track season, and knowing that you needed a break, but still needed to continue on to your next season in cross, SOM was meant to be "between season" training. Basically it was to get you back to the basics and refresh and invigorate your body and mind.

I came to this idea by reflecting on what I used to do in the Summer and how I would do it if I could do it over again. In high school my teammates would meet at 6 am for an easy run. Then I'd run in the afternoon sometimes. When I was in college I used to manage swimming pools during the Summer. Comedian Martin Lawrence was one of the knucklehead kids at one of my pools. Generally I ran about 40-70 miles a week June through July, but I was very active, what with swimming and chasing tail all Summer. In August I'd start to ramp up the training a bit and get ready for cross country.

If I had to do it over again, I'd do SOM. I'd invite guys from other colleges and high schools to meet twice a week for an easy training session on the track. By easy, I mean for a sub 14 5k college runner repeat 400s at 68-70 would be certified SOM training. Again, this will shock many of you, "that's not hard." That's the point.

When I suggest workouts to do, those are only the basics. The point of SOM is that all runners of varying abilities and levels of fitness can run together. For instance, the 4-6 mile tempo run who be 4-6 miles for the lead group, however, the less-fit in the group might run 2 miles, rest a lap, then run tow more miles with the leaders. Each subsequent week they might add another lap top the time they hang with the leaders. Same thing with the repear 1200-2000m efforts. They might run 800m, wait a lap, then jump in the final 400, of the mile repeats that the lead group is doing.

There's no reason why everyone has to run a five mile tempo run, or that everyone has to run repeat 1200s. The leaders should be running paces that is comfortable to them, the others should be jumping in/out at those same paces. It makes it fun for everyone, and the slower athletes will find themselves improving week after week, without breaking down physically or mentally.

Here it is, Summer of malmo, with addendum-diddy-dum

Summer of Malmo

To paraphrase George Costanza:" It's going to be the 'Summer of malmo!'"

Q: What is this so-called "Summer of malmo"?

A: It's a foolproof, no-nonsense, 100 percent guaranteed program that will help runners of all abilities to improve their fitness over the summer WITHOUT the attendant physical or mental fatigue. "Summer of malmo" revolves around a relaxed commitment from a group to meet just twice a week for an organized workout. One tempo run and one longer interval session. JUST TWICE A WEEK IS ALL I ASK. Emphasis on RELAXED and emphasis on COMMITMENT. Make this a social event.

Q: Who is it for?

A: Everyone (almost). Anyone that isn't reaching their full potential, and you know who you are. It's for runners that have been THINKING about doing doubles and haven't yet started. It's for you runners that have been THINKING of jacking up the mileage and haven't yet started. It's for college runners. High school runners. Boys, girls, men and women. Anyone that wants to make the leap for next year's cross country season. Different skill levels? No problem. Fitness levels? Coming off an injury and are way behind? It's OK, I've thought of it all. This foolproof SCHEDULE is all things to all runners!

Q: Who isn't it for?

A: Any runner who has immediate racing goals. This "program" is a springboard for the cross country season. An easy way to prepare oneself for the real training to be done in the fall.

Q: I thought that you don't believe in writing SCHEDULES?

A: I don't, these workouts are only examples, you can customize it any way that you want - EXCEPT FOR THE INTENSITY LEVEL. That part must always be relaxed and within yourself. Otherwise it is not a genuine Summer of malmo. The product and your warranty will be null and void.

Q: How do I start?

A: First up, call all of your running friends, crew, homeys, goodbuddies, gangmates, posse, stable, team or pals and commit to meet twice a week for a workout. Get together with runners from other teams in your town or city. Make it a social event. Meet for pizza or a BBQ afterwards. Start now. Also, start running twice a day now. In the words of John Ngugi, "Don't waste good time." Do doubles four, five or six days a week. Can't make it four days? Then do three. For most of you grasshoppers doubles are the missing element that is keeping you from reaching your full potential, so start 'em now.

Q: What if I get tired?

A: You will get tired, I can guarantee it. IT WILL PASS. Trust me.

Q: How many miles should I run?

A: I don't know, but more than you've been doing. The time is now to find out exactly where your personal sweet spot is. The main goals are to (1) increase the mileage and (2) to run doubles. Some of you may be running over 100 miles per week for the first time, other still think that running 70 mpw is a lot. It's OK, this PROGRAM will accommodate everyone.

Q: My friends are going to meet twice a week, where?

A: On the track. Why? Because the PROGRAM is designed to accommodate everyone with one simple formula. You'll see soon enough.

Q: What workouts do we do?

A: Once a week meet for a tempo run on the track of four to six miles. The other workout is four to six by 1200m to 2000m with one lap jog, OR 16 to 24 by 150m to 300m with FULL RECOVERY - that's a really slow jog. Walk if you have to. You determine what you want to do; these are just recommendations.

Q: How fast?

A: Whatever is comfortable for the group. Not once should you come off of the workout with your eyes rolling back in your heads, that's not the point. Basically it's threshold training, but don't tell anyone I said so - I've got an image to uphold.

Let's say on your tempo run you've got four of you who are comfortable with 5:20 pace for five miles but you have two others who would have to struggle with that pace and another two who just simply are not in shape. No problem. The middle two could probably run for two miles, rest a lap and when the group comes around again, jump back in. Just as long as it's still a tempo run for them. Both the leaders and the runners jumping back in will benefit from each other. Those two out-of-shape runners? Jump in at the back of the pack for a lap or two, rest a lap, jump back in for another lap or two, and repeat until the run is over.

Each week they'll be able to run more and more, and before you know it, they'll be right up there with the lead group. Same thing with the long interval session.

The beauty of the "Summer of malmo" is that no matter what kind of shape you or your comrades-in-sweat are in you can all train together and benefit from each other.

Q: What should my heart rate be?

A: I don't have a clue. I'm trying to get you to "feel" Kung Fu, not "think" it.

Q: What about those 200s? Why are we doing speed work now?

A: The only way to run fast is to, well, run fast. The time to start is now. Let's say the group is running 200s. Just go out and run them. FULL RECOVERY. The whole point is to train the neuromuscular system, to concentrate on the mechanics of running - you know it: forward lean, arm carriage, knees up and out, heels clipping your butt, stride length and turnover. I've always been amazed at the number of runners that think that they can "get speed" during the last three weeks of the season. It doesn't work that way.

Q: So what you're saying is a five mile tempo run once a week AND, lets say, five by one mile, OR 16 x 200 for the other workout?

A: That's exactly what I'm saying. All of these workouts should be within yourself. Remember this isn't the end-all training program, it will prepare your for the real work to begin in September.

Q: No hill repeats?

A: Nope. If you want to, go ahead, but the objective here is to get the most during the summer with the least amount of effort - that's PHYSICAL and MENTAL. By meeting twice a week and running in a group the mental effort should be at a minimum. REMEMBER, NO RACING IN THE F*****' WORKOUT!!! There will be plenty of time for that later.

Q: What about the other days?

A: Keep those doubles going. If you're out on a run and are feeling good you just might rip into another tempo run. My favorite: "run to the barn", that is, the last two to three miles of an easy run just let it rip. Go into orbit. Some of you geeks might even call it AT training.

Q: I live in the country and don't have anyone else to run with.

A: That's OK. Just do your tempo runs on the roads. For your long repeats you might just go out on the roads for an hour or so of 5:00 easy/5:00 hard (on of my favorite workouts). Still the same principles apply to you. All of these workouts should be run within yourself.

Q: I want to run some summer road races, can I?

A: Sure, why not? As long as these races are not the end-all. You've got bigger fish to fry in the fall so take it easy. Who are you trying to impress in the summer anyway? Not me, baby. Save it for later. If you've got the discipline then run your tempo run during these races. Alright, I know that everyone has one race that they'd like to concentrate on, go ahead and go for it. Just don't make it a weekly habit.

Q: How much will this cost?

A: Nothing. There is no "Gold, Silver, or Bronze" plan to sign up for. I won't provide increasing levels of attention dependent upon the amount on the check. This program isn't about me, it's about you. I'm just passing on to you what is public domain, hopefully you'll use it.

Q: Go over that again?

A: (1) twice-a-day, as many days as you can - four, five or six days a week (2) increase your mileage, look, you guys are made of the same muscle and bone as me, you can do it. Find your own sweet spot (3) meet with a group twice a week (4) one tempo run of just four to six miles and (5) one workout of 1200m to 2000m repeats OR 16 to 24 by 150m to 300m (5) don't try to impress anyone, run within yourself (6) relax, the real training doesn't begin until September.

Addendum

"Summer of Malmo" is "a foolproof, no-nonsense, 100 percent guaranteed program that will help runners of all abilities to improve their fitness over the summer WITHOUT the attendant physical or mental fatigue" just as it says in the first paragraph. It is in-between season training. It isn't a training "program" so-to-speak.

"Summer of Malmo" was born out of John Schiefer's Track&FieldMedia.com message board almost ten years ago. Tranck&FieldMedia was the "Granddaddy of the running message boards" and had Schiefer not decided to spend more time on his day job Letsrun would have never become the "world famous message board" it is today.

Track&FieldMedia.com was just like it is here today, full of runners looking for the secret workout or the secret program that will take them to the next step. Every year about this time they start devising all sort of ingenious plans for the Summer to get them ready for cross country season. Then, as it is now, they were looking for a blueprint for the Summer, when in reality there is no blueprint, there are no secret workouts at all. All there is, is consistency, persistence and patience -- just as it always was. Summer of Malmo is a concept, not a blueprint, feel free to adjust it to suit your needs.

Knowing that "consistency, persistence and patience" doesn't excite anyone, one day I posted on T%FMedia that I had the Summer program that was exactly what all of the young bucks were looking for, and that when I get a chance I'll post it. This became somewhat of a running joke at the T&FMedia message boards, each week someone would ask about my summer "training" program and each week I's say, I'm still "working on it.

Finally in June, I realized I couldn't procrastinate any longer, so I sat down and wrote "Summer of Malmo" with the Seinfeld episode of "Summer of George" in the background on TV. It was born part out of reality, the Summer of 1989 that Terrance Mahon decided he was going to get serious, and went from unknown scrub to College All-America, but it was also part reflection of mine as to how high school and college runners should go about training during the Summer between seasons.

Historically, runners tend to come from two camps; their motivation gets misplaced during the Summer and they do too little training to prepare themselves for XC, or they train too hard, come to school in great shape and don't improve, causing disillusionment and then misplace blame on their coach for ruining them.

I decided that if I could do it over again, or if I were a college coach, I'd direct my runners that the first thing they should do when they get home is to call all of their friends up and make a commitment to meet twice weekly for informal training sessions. I'd tell them to put the word out to all of the local high school teams and invite them to the training sessions as well. The point of those sessions would be that this is a social event and the workouts would be low-stress aerobic workouts. ALL WORKOUTS would be run at an intensity level that is well-within the ability of all runners.

The idea of having runners all run the same pace, periodically jumping in and out of the workout that the lead group is doing, also came out of that Summer of 1989. I had been knocked out of training by a dose of sciatica. When I started running, I decided that rather than building up my mileage with all easy runs, I'd start doing interval work on the track immediately, but I'd start off running slow and short, gradually lengthening the distance and increasing the speed as my body let me. The original "Summer of Terrance" group consisted of Terrance Mahon, Peter Fonseca, Brad Hudson, Colin Dalton and myself, with assorted guest stars jumping (not sure how many times Pat Haller made it) in depending on who was in town for that session. There were times that I'd jump in for a lap (while the group was running a 5 mile tempo run) then wait until they got back around, then I'd jump in again, and so on. Each week I'd run a little bit more and/or a little bit faster, finally by the end of the Summer I caught up to the lead. This was the easiest Summer of good training I ever had.

I.John Nutlall. Iowa St.. 29.30

2 Jonah Koech, Iowa Sr . 29.32

3 German Beltran,Alabama. 29:33

4. Terry Thornton. LSU ana Sr., 29.49

5. Robcrr Kennedy. Indiana. 29.54.

6. Todd Williams,. Tennessee. 29.47

7 Shannon Butler. Montana St, 29.59;

8. Brad Hudson. Oregon. 30:01.

9. Mark Croghan. OSU St 30.03

10. Peter Sherry. Georgetown. 30.04

11 Darrell Smith. Iowa St, 30.07

12. James Gibson Yale. 3O.08

13 Joe Kirby. Nebraka. 30.09

14. Jesse McGuire WMU 30.09

15. Stan Dollman. WKU 30.13

16. Peter Fonseca Oregon 30.16

17 Pat Hailer. Oregon. 30.16

18. Sammy Cherulyot. Mt. St. Mary’ 30 17.34.

19. Steven Fury. Oklahwna St. 30:22

20. Steven Brown. Penn St 30.23

27. Terrance Mahon, Oregon 30.31

1 Iowa State 54

2 Oregon 72

3 Wake Forest 219

malmo wrote:Comedian Martin Lawrence was one of the knucklehead kids at one of my pools.

oh, well now im definitely gonna listen to you

Dear Brojos,

Can we please get the Summer of Malmo + Addendum as a permanent link on the front page?

thanks,

The Entirety of Letsrun

Thank you malmo for your input.

A few more things:

1."running within yourself." Is this another way of saying that I should be doing workouts, just a lot slower than usual? For example, If I usually do 5x1000m repeats at 3:45, would "running within yourself" be slowing down to 4:05 pace or so?

2.I also would like to ask a question on one of the links attached that never was answered:

You say to try to find your "sweet spot" in terms of mileage. How do you know when you are at your "sweet spot"?

3. You say "maybe running isn't for you." Well, I do know running is for me, but it made me think of another question:

Are doubles for everyone? As I previously stated, I have had a rather bad experience with doubles thus far (although it is limited experience). Do you (or anyone else here) have testimonies of people they knew that it took them a while to get used to them? A previous poster said that doubles made adding mileage so easy "it was like stealing." Obviously, doubles are for people like that. When I ask this question, I am not trying to look for shortcuts. I know that short-cutting mileage will only shortcut improvement as well. I am just wondering if you, or anyone else here, have ever met someone that have had a very hard time adjusting to doubles, and if so, how long did it take them to adjust?

Again, I really do want to run doubles, and deep down believe that they will be good for me. But part of me is just self-doubting because of my bad experiences thus far.

Thank you for your time.

1. Running within yourself means not always running 1000's at 3:45. You should be getting more fit as the season goes on and progressing to faster work, which you couldn't do if you tried in June. Why would you always try to hit a fixed pace? Work out at your given fitness level on that given day.

you're probably exerting a little too much at 3:45 pace. workouts should be workouts, not races. don't redline it.

start with 4:05, pick it up if necessary

Since there's still a lot of excitement in the air, I've got time for you.

4:05 is in the spirit. Repeat 400s at slower than 3:45 would fit the bill as well. The point here is that you are running the paces that you would be at top fitness levels without the same 'hard' effort. This is neuromuscular facilitation --- the foundation of ALL athletic training.

You need to find out for yourself. If your sweet spot is 80mpw and you are never going to find out running over 50 then you'll never find out until you try. I can't tell you what your sweet spot is. There is no human being who has ever walked the Earth who can tell you. Only one person can determine what that is -- YOU!

You aren't doing doubles to "add extra mileage". You are doing them to get in two training stimuli per day. Start off with 2-3 miles in the morning. Easy. do them every morning for two weeks. If you go through a period of fatigue its to be expected.

As far as specific examples goes: Terrance Mahon. When he started doing doubles I told him he'd probably feel fatigued and that it would pass. It did, and the rest is history.

I am reminded of the following classic exchange (http://www.bash.org/?3936):

christin: you need to learn how to figure out stuff yourself..

how do i do that

The most important thing written in that "Summer of Malmo" piece is the bit about feeling your kung fu, not thinking it.

You have been helpful once again malmo

One question I was interested in was the mileage between seasons. You have said that the summer of malmo is between season training but also to find your mileage sweet spot while doing the summer of malmo.

Your mileage was generally lower during the summer.

It seems your individual mileage sweetspot after many years of consistent doubles and training was around 120mpw which you did during cross country a few months before your steeple AR, but that mileage was not reached consistently between the season/s.

Is the goal of finding one's mileage sweet spot during the summer (between seasons) to find the optimal mileage that will perpare people for more intense training to be done in a few months? E.g. in your case generally 50-70mpw.

Thanks for taking the time to reply

I think that you need to reread what I said: