Is this a good tempo workout?

Well if you're going to run a true tempo, you shouldn't have much of a problem running that without rest. However, if you're going to take rest, 5 minutes is basically full recovery. You don't necessarily want that. However, it all depends how fast you're running a tempo.

In my experience, a tempo pace is typically something you could hold for an hour long.

30-35 minutes continuous?

Tempo runs vary depending on who you are talking with. But it breaks down to.HM pace = 20-30 minMar pace = hour20-30s off 5k pace is probably a bit closer to hm pace. Runnning ~35 min at HM is a pretty decent early season workout.

asfsf wrote:

Well if you're going to run a true tempo, you shouldn't have much of a problem running that without rest. However, if you're going to take rest, 5 minutes is basically full recovery. You don't necessarily want that. However, it all depends how fast you're running a tempo.

In my experience, a tempo pace is typically something you could hold for an hour long.

On a slightly related note: when you talk about 5K, marathon, and half-marathon pace, how does one calculate those? I have never raced a 5K and probably never will. I certainly will never race anything longer than that. I'm an 800m runner and I hate hate hate doing long repeats or tempo stuff, but I know it's good for me. So if I want to do 25 minutes of tempo, how should I figure out how fast that should be? I run my easy mileage at about 7:00, my 800 PR is 1:54, but I've got no idea what that means for how fast tempo pace should be.

That is one of the key tempo workouts in "Better Training for Distance Runners".

Depending on how hard you run it, it could be a killer or a good solid workout. The first time I did the workout, I was doing most of my tempos only a little slower than 10k pace, but doing them for only 20 min (since that was what a tempo run was back in the early 90s). I remember adding on that second 15 min without backing off the first 20 min. I did the whole thing on a hot afternoon as part of a 10 mile run. The workout pretty much wiped me out for the next couple of days.

I would say keep the first 20 minutes pretty relaxed and try for a little more solid effort on the second 15 minutes. If you are in high school, you are training to run hard for a maximum of 9-11 minutes, so I don't think your tempo efforts need to be super long, rather they should be a bit shorter and you should aim for closer to your anaerobic threshold (Which I usually guestimate as 30 sec per mile slower than 2 mile rp for my runners.)

If you have times in other events (400, mile/1500, 3k/2mile) it'd help us see how much worse you get relatively as the events get longer, and can give a general range of 5k pace.

CoachB wrote:

... they should be a bit shorter and you should aim for closer to your anaerobic threshold (Which I usually guestimate as 30 sec per mile slower than 2 mile rp for my runners.)

You have much to say that is good advice, CoachB. I would prefer, however, that you be more specific with regards to the tempo pace for your runners. Perhaps 30" off their 2M PR is fine for some, but the difference would vary for someone with a somewhat different 2M PR.

If one accepts the anaerobic threshold to be at about 80%-90% of VO2max (per Martin & Coe, BTFDR), then one can estimate a reasonable tempo pace (85%) from their 2M PR using the following:

(2M PR) / 2 / .85

It helps to do the calculation with the times converted to seconds.

Here is an example for someone with a 2M PR of 10:30.

Convert to seconds: 10 * 60 + 30 = 630"

630 / 2 / .85 = 371" = 6:11

Thus, this runner whose 2M race pace is 5:15/mile would have an approximate tempo pace of 6:11/mile.

Rough conversions 800->1600 4-8s a lap 1600-3200 10-20s a mile 3200->5k add 10-15s a mile 5k->HM add 20-25s hm->MP add 15-30s as you can see the range gets pretty big after a while. You could also try daniels book (not sure if they have the 800) but either way you are going to get a range of times.I would guess your threshold is somewhere in the 5:15->6:00 range. I would start at 6 and if that feels comfortable after 2 miles, drop the pace 10-15s for the next 2 miles. If you struggle to finish the workout back off to the starting pace. If after the tempo run you don't feel like could have run another mile or two at that pace, you were going too fast. If it felt easy, next week start at the faster pace.

Hel wrote:

On a slightly related note: when you talk about 5K, marathon, and half-marathon pace, how does one calculate those? I have never raced a 5K and probably never will. I certainly will never race anything longer than that. I'm an 800m runner and I hate hate hate doing long repeats or tempo stuff, but I know it's good for me. So if I want to do 25 minutes of tempo, how should I figure out how fast that should be? I run my easy mileage at about 7:00, my 800 PR is 1:54, but I've got no idea what that means for how fast tempo pace should be.

30 seconds slower than 2 mile pace is just a rough estimate for us. This is also not based off our 2 mile PR, but our current 2 mile fitness instead.

For instance, when we start the cross country season, we run a 2 mile time trial to determine where the athletes are aerobically. We will then determine the workout paces for the kids based on that 2 mile. When we run the 2 mile, it is usually well over 100 degrees, so the times are slow, therefore the goal workout paces are pretty slow (since the kids will have to run the workouts in the same conditions that they ran the time trial). Once we have determined tempo pace, we do mostly cruise intervals. Traditionally, these have been 4-5 x 1 mile or 5-6 x 1200 for our top boys (with about 1 minute rest). We do this, rather than a continuous tempo, because of the heat. Later in the season, when the weather starts to cool off, we will do 6k-8k tempo runs on a 1k loop that has a gnarly uphill of about 150m at about a 15-18% grade followed by a 400m gradual downhill. I'm never really strict about the pace on those.

In track, we assess the fitness at the beginning of the season, but try to do our tempo runs as continuous efforts because: 1. The weather is cooler and we can run the runs without stopping for water and 2.Our track and workout loops are usually muck. I try to keep the duration of the tempo efforts between 20 and 25 min. We have 3 loops that we use. 2 are just short of 3 miles and one is just short of 4 miles. The experienced boys will do the longer loop and most everybody else will do the shorter loop. The beginners will usually only do 2 miles tempo.

I was actually thinking about what I posted above while I was on my run today and would like to ammend a portion of it. At this time of the year, with outdoor track still far on the horizon. I think that longer easier tempo efforts would probably be better. The OP should try to run them comfortably fast and there is nothing wrong with going 30-40 min straight at that effort. As the season approaches, the paces should come up toward a true Anaeobic/Lactate threshold and the time should probably come down to 20-25 min.

Thanks for the replies. When I do my lactate threshold workouts, mile repeats and the like, they're generally around 5:20 per mile, but I always have serious doubts during a workout like that whether I could do the 4 miles without the 90 sec. recovery I tend to take in between.

I think I'll take the advice to start off at about 6 min. pace and adjust it according to how I feel. So thank you.

try 3-4xmile at 5:30-5:45 pace with 1 min rest. Start at 5:45 and work down to 5:30 on the last one. Shouldn't be too tough.

I think one important thing that is occasionally forgotten by advice-givers is that there is a big difference between the training one would expect a high schooler to be able to do, and the training one would expect a fully mature athlete to do.

For a high school athlete, 20 minutes at 5k pace plus 30 seconds, then 5 minutes rest, then 15 minutes more at the same pace is a fantastic workout. It might even be pushing the limits of the kind of high-level aerobic training a kid relatively new to the sport should be doing.

I think for most high schoolers, cruise intervals are the way to go. The already-mentioned 5xmile with a min rest at tempo pace is great for younger runners. Obviously, a college or post-collegiate athlete, who presumably has been running longer and has a larger, stronger aerobic base, could handle the more traditional tempo runs better.

5xmile for a high school in general is a good workout if they have the ability to handle that kind of workout but usually three at tempo pace with approx. 3 min rest is much better workout across the board.

I run for a college team right now, and we do a lot of stuff with tempo's. I base most of my training through the jack daniel's running formula 2nd edition. A modified workout for a high schooler may be as follows:

3X1mile @5:20-30s with 800jog, followed by 1X2mile @5:40s/mile

or

1X3mile@ 5:40-50/mile,with 5min recov, followed by 2X1mile@5:20s.

Now, I won't say those paces are what you should be running, because I have no idea what your main race is or how what's your weekly mileage/minutes. Daniel's uses a vdot system to base what all your paces should be. Anyways, that's an example of something a decent high schooler could handle.

ps. These would be sufficient if you want to do longer stuff. Or if anything, like most have previously posted, 3-5X1mile is a pretty decent workout for a young/high school runner.

teacherofabove poster wrote:

5xmile for a high school in general is a good workout if they have the ability to handle that kind of workout but usually three at tempo pace with approx. 3 min rest is much better workout across the board.

I agree with your suggestion for younger kids- a 14 or 15 year old athlete would be well served with 3xmile at tempo with 3 min rest. I think you could add a little more to that workload as they get older- a well-developed 16-18 year old might do 3xmile with 3 min rest, then decide for himself "hey, coach, I feel like I can do another one without going overboard" then he does one more and goes "yeah, I definitely have two more in me" and then the coach maybe lets him do one more and stop there, or says "nah, 4xmile is enough for today" or maybe even lets the athlete do 6. It all depends on the athlete.

i totally agree because thats how i coach...pushing the kids to do more just because they can doesnt mean it will benefit them. remember those days when i let you do whatever you wanted

Sorry OP I don't mean to hijack your thread here, but I have a question I would like to pose.

What system would a workout like 3x2mile with 3 min rest be working on?

For some reason I always have wanted to do really long intervals that are over a mile in lenght like 2 miles and 2k's because I never got to do that in college.

For us it was 7 mile tempo and then the next slowest stuff was at 8k race pace.

Do you even need to train in the middle range? I am an aspiring coach I need to know these things haha.

I would say its its sorta similiar to doing mile repeats at threshold. Most coaches have had runners longer interval stuff, but made it slower than true threshold pace then work their way up to their true threshold pace for more than a mile. For that workout I would adjust and add maybe 5sec/mile to their threshold pace. Then as their fitness progresses, try and get them to get down to their true threshold pace. The key is to get comfortable running at a comfortably hard pace for an extended period of time. Depending on the skill/maturity of the runners, I would start with mile and two mile repeats and then work up onto the 2X3mile, and eventually 2X4mile. Encorporate these workouts with a medium long run. Example:

Normal run:60

Medium/long run:75w/tempo training

Long:90

You want your runners to feel comfortable at holding a hard pace--that is the sole purpose of this type of training. Hope it helps?

ps. keep break short, start with 3min and work down to 2, if the runner thinks its too easy. You be the judge and make sure he doesn't run these too fast.