Whats the more important: arobic base phase or arobic speed endurance

Strong aerobic running is extremely important for 800 runners. Especially during the base phase. However, you can still work on speed just sprint for no longer then 30 seconds and take a complete break (3+ minutes in between). You could do something like 10 by 100 meters once or twice a week. This will keep your speed but not tape into your anaerobic system which should only be worked 8-12 weeks. Then during racing season do your intervals and the speed should be there along with the endurance to hold the pace.

I meant to say tap.

Basically, both are important. It just depends on the phase of training.

Even if you have a great kick, you need to be in position to use it. Aerobic training is extremely important, even for 800m runners.

What about aerobic intervals? Like 15 x 200 at current mile pace and 10 x 300 at current 2 mile pace? I personally think they are great training for 800 meter runners. Add some 5 mile runs. Some at 80% - 85% of mhr. And some of 65% - 70% mhr. Do some sprints after some of them. You never go anaerobic in your training though you train speed a couple of times a week and will be fresh for the harder training.

Yes, those wo's are a good bridge to the hard race pace intervals you will do later in the season.

Athlete wrote:

What about aerobic intervals? Like 15 x 200 at current mile pace and 10 x 300 at current 2 mile pace? I personally think they are great training for 800 meter runners. Add some 5 mile runs. Some at 80% - 85% of mhr. And some of 65% - 70% mhr. Do some sprints after some of them. You never go anaerobic in your training though you train speed a couple of times a week and will be fresh for the harder training.

In order to reap the aerobic benefits of those workouts, the recoveries should be kept short 15-20 x 200 with 30 sec recovery or 10-12 x 300 with quick 100 recovery jog.

Aerobic base training in the true sense doesn't take very long. What you are trying to do in this phase is to maximize mitochondrial mass in both fast and slow twitch fibers along with the associated enzymes for aerobic respiration, which only occurs inside the mitochondria.

This initial phase takes only six weeks maximum, and usually less, if you already have good fitness.

However, the aerobic speed endurance conditioning is what takes a long time. In fact this type of conditioning takes years to maximize.

This is because speed endurance is a function of both aerobic capacity and neural conditioning (the central nervous system) and your ability to maintain the perfect long fast stride at different paces can never be too good.

What your coach will no doubt want to protect you from is the desire to build up your speed endurance training too quickly.

Both phases are equally important, but building confidence in your running is hugely important too. A good coach will know how to help you achieve this in your own way, because good coaches know that every athlete is different and requires certain types of training and psychological boosting that we all share and cetain types that are unique to the individual.

Thanks to all, but I need to know about arobic training, not aerobic. Any help?

What would you define as "Aerobic Base Training in a true sense" and how would you go about training it?

Are you referring to VO2 max type workouts such as 1000m intervals? If so, I agree with you 100%. I think that most people on this board would also consider the months of easy to moderate distance running and tempo work to be part of the aerobic base phase, however.

Bump...

This has the potential to be a pretty good thread

Arobic 800 training wrote:

Thanks to all, but I need to know about arobic training, not aerobic. Any help?

CoachB wrote:

What would you define as "Aerobic Base Training in a true sense" and how would you go about training it?

Are you referring to VO2 max type workouts such as 1000m intervals? If so, I agree with you 100%. I think that most people on this board would also consider the months of easy to moderate distance running and tempo work to be part of the aerobic base phase, however.

I think I answered that question well enough in my post.

You certainly don't need so called VO2 max work to reach your maximum oxygen uptake, since all running will do this, by promoting increases or maintenance of mitochonrial mass in both fast and slow twitch fibers.

Yes I do believe that slow running does this for all the oxidative muscle fibers.

However, faster paced running during base training promotes the necessary neural adaptations we need for racing, so why waste months avoiding faster paced running as many coaches advocate?

I advocate all paces in base training.

Neural adaptation is not a slow process.

That's precisely my point.

I wrote that last post too hastily. What I am saying is that although training adaptations happen relatively quickly, aerobic development is limited but neuro-muscular co-ordination will keep developing constantly, year after year.

In other words, VO2 max is relatively easy to train, and these adaptions related to this happen quickly, but stride length takes a very long time to develop. You have to practice running fast to achieve this, so why waste months running slowly?

I've never heard of "arobic training." Do you mean "anaerobic?" It's important for an 800m runner to develop all of the systems they'll use during the race, but in my opinion, for a young athlete aerobic development should come first and has the biggest impact for the time and energy invested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_exercise

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/635991

I think the situation is a little different than just stride length. If that is all you want, just go do some squats, plyometrics, fast sprinting up hills (with long rest). The issue with an 800 is upgrading your anaerobic and aerobic power so you can MAINTAIN that stride rate for the whole race.

But just aerobic base training (well below race pace) is not that much help either. Just look at guys like Ritz and Meb. Huge aerobic capacity...but they can't run 400 worth you-know-what. Their PB for 400 is something like 55. This is not intended to be a shot at Malmo, but check out his 800 PB. You can take just about any hs or college guy who can run 400 in 50--without almost any aerobic training at all--and he'll kick all their butts in an 800.

There is some use for what Renato calls fundamental development: mileage (within limits), tempo runs, and the like. But the 800 is run at a much faster pace than this, so the actual training effect on 800 performance is limited. The key is HIGH END AEROBIC. Aerobic power and anaerobic power--the ability to use your aerobic system to maintain at 800 pace, not to run for a much longer time at a much slower pace. There is some use for pure speed early in the cycle and close to comp. But the KEY training is LONG INTERVALS. Intervals in the 800-1200m range for aerobic power, and intervals of 300-600 for anaerobic power (this is special endurance--long intervals, rests over 10-15 minutes, and above 90% of 400/800 race pace).

So what I'd recommend for endurance trained runner is a "base" phase consisting of long intervals twice a week (this is the key training),some base running for recovery, and a long run...and maybe some 60m sprints if you have time for them. Then, as you get ready for indoor season (or outdoor training), add some 100's and 200's. As you go through the outdoor season/training, start doing some 300's or 400's and less of the aerobic power.

If you are a sprinter, though, the key training is the special endurance 300's-600's--workouts like 5X600 close to 800 capability with long rest. This is how you develop your anaerobic system to sustain for a longer period of time (and what Juantorena did).

CoachD, your post is full of ideas which sound good in priciple, but just how realistic is it to ascribe such vague definitions of aerobic and anaerobic to training?

For example, your last sentence doesn't make any sense at all: "This is how you develop your anaerobic system to sustain for a longer period of time (and what Juantorena did)."

I know that you are tryining to explain things in the typical sports science jargon, but it's not real science and all it doesn't really help runners to understand what is really happening to them physically. What I want to do is to explain things in ways that actually make sense and are not pseudo-scientific. I realize that I am in a very small minority here, but this has to be the way forward for runners.

So can we talk physiology rather than fizzyology, and can I make this request without offending you and others?

All running involves both aerobic and anaerobic energy production.

The wikipedia link that you posted is just bad science, the typical stuff that you read in most textbooks and which is 40+ years out of date.

For example, running a marathon involves much more anaerobic contribution than most authors realize.

Also, the second lap of an 800m race is much more aerobic than people realize.