800m training

Try 6 months of this "fundamental" training (not base work, fundamental work) and get back to us:

1.) Increase your mileage by 10-15 miles per week over the 6 month period (as in, 6 months from now be averaging 10-15 miles per week than you are right now). This is a very slow progression, and for a reason. Every 4th week should be a little less.

2.) Lift weights and do lots of core work.

3.) Structure your week as outlined below:

MONDAY: 15% of weekly mileage today (do a morning run if necessary to achieve that total). Do all this on the same hill, just go longer each time.

1. 2 months of: Warm-up (jog, a few strides, form drills, a few faster strides) , 8-15 x 150-200 uphill at a medium grade on a hard surface at 3k-5k effort, jog down for recovery, cool down.

2. 2 months of: Warm-up, 8-10 x 300-400 uphill at 3k-5k effort jog down recovery, cool down.

3. 2 months of: Warm-up, 5-7 x 600-800 uphill at 3k-5k effort jog down recovery, cool down.

TUESDAY: 15% of weekly mileage, including at the end of the run: a few light strides at 5k speed, form drills, light plyos, 6 x 100m at 800m speed (1 minute recovery), short cool down jog.

WEDNESDAY: 15% of weekly mileage today (do a morning run if necessary). Alternate these 3 each week.

a.) Warm-up (jog, a few strides, form drills, a few faster strides), 4-7 miles at 5:50-6:00 pace (go longer as the months pass), cool down.

b.) Warm-up, 6-8 x 1000 in 3:45 to 3:30 pace (go faster as the months pass) with 200 jog rests, cool down.

c.) Warm-up, 6-8 x 800 in 2:35 to 2:25 (go faster as the months pass) with 400 jog rests, cool down.

THUR: 10% of weekly mileage slow (7:30-8:00 pace).

FRI: 15% of weekly mileage today (do morning run if necessary to achieve this). Alternate these 3 each week.

a.) Warm-up (jog, a few strides, form drills, light plyos, a few more strides), 10 x 60m at 95% full speed (walk back very slowly for recovery), very long cool down at 7:00-7:30 pace.

b.) Warm-up, 8-10 x 100 in 13.0 with a 300m slow jog, long cool down at 7:00-7:30 pace.

c.) Warm-up, 6 x 100-150 uphill at 85-90% full speed with a very slow jog down for recovery, very long cool down.

SAT: 20% of mileage progressively going from 7:30 down to 6:00 pace the last mile or two.

SUN: 10% of mileage slow (7:30-8:00 pace)

Strauss wrote:

im trying to lower my 800m time but i dont know where to take my training. i currently run a 2.01 800m and would like to get it into the lower 1.50s. i can run a .53 400m, 4.50 mile, and 16.20 3mi. with really long runs, i can run a 10 miler with about a 6.30 pace. any advice would help. thanks

It sort depends on what type of training you have been doing. It looks like your aerobically weak so adding some vo2 max intervals and tempo runs (work better than 10 mile runs for a lot of 800 meter guys) would be start. To get into the low 1.50s you are going to need more speed so some plyo, 30m hill runs, strides, drills, and maybe some core/weight lifting would help.

The other thing a lot of 800m guys struggle with is a sense of pace. If you ran your 800 something along the lines of 56/65, you need to run workouts to figure out what 29s 200s feel like.

Well let me explain this more.

You want to work on 2 things: your aerobic stamina (which you must be lacking with a 4:50 PR) and your top-end speed and efficiency. You do not need to do the anaerobic, specific training for awhile. Work on the fundamentals.

Monday will be an aerobic power session. The goal is to improve your VO2 max and develop some specific leg strength that will support the faster sesssions later. You will need to start on shorter hills at a medium effort to condition your muscles to be able to absorb the benefits for the longer hills later. If your legs are too weak, starting with 800m hills at 3k-5k effort (remember, effort, not pace) will inevitably become an anaerobic activity.

Tuesday is recovery, but a few stride-outs afterwards will stretch your legs out and enable you to feel better the next day.

Wednesday you'll alternate between improving your lactate threshold (A), your VO2 max (C), or a little of both (B). I think too much LT work for an 800 runner breeds flat legs, but some is necessary.

Thursday is a recovery day.

Friday is for improving basic sprint speed and efficiency. Work on good, clean form. It is vital to give yourself FULL recovery to teach your legs how to go both fast and smooth. Afterwards do a long cool down to keep your mileage going.

Saturday is a long run: good ol aerobic conditioning.

Sunday is recovery again.

awesome post, can you provide a similar outline you would use following the fundemental phase?

Ummmm.....No!

The 800m is basically a long sprint and has very little to do with distance running. You can accomplish everything you need to do in the 800m on 35 miles per week (or less if you are a very dynamic athlete).

The 800m is more about using the serial elastic component (SEC) and your connective tissue to develop dynamic ability then learning how to run really slowly. Stronger and more elastic connective tissue is developed through extensive drilling, sprinting, plyometrics and lifting. In order to prepare yourself for the high intensity of the spring you need to get all of your connective tissue and muscles ready for it.

The extensive drilling can be done in a way that develops fitness so here's something for the first 4 weeks of the season(I'm assuming a prior general fitness phase, i.e., you are in some state of fitness and won't be killed by doing physical exercise). This type of training develops connective tissue and fitness without doing slow aerobic work. Dont' forget, aerobic work hypotrophies the muscle and screws-up the titin (an elastic protein found in the contractile unit of the muscle fiber). In essences, aerobic running straightens the titin out--which is one of the reasons distance runners have less dynamic ability. Also, distance running increases your cortisol which is a catabolic hormone. Catabolic hormones cause muscle wasting so that your muscles get smaller--not really good for events that involve power.

Monday: extensive drills, skips, easy (small) bounds with some speed work (ins and outs). These can all be mixed up so for example: sprint exercises (5types) wk 1--3 x 30 each, wk 2--4 x 30 each, wk 3--5 x 30 each, wk 4 3 x 30 each then do some easy skipping (wk 1 3 x 50; wk2 4 x 50; wk3 5 x 50, wk4; 3 x 50) the some speed work for maximum velocity (wk1; 5 x [30 relaxed/15 fast/30 relaxed] wk2 6x; wk3 7 x; wk4 5 x)

Tuesday:

wk1--4 x 1000m; wk2--5 x 1000m; wk3--5 x 1000m; wk4--3 x 1000m

Wednesday:

4 - 6 miles easy for recovery; can be done in pool as long as you can maintain a HR above 140 for the entire time; Added bonus is that pool running increases the size of the left ventrical

Thursday:

Some drilling (less extensive then Monday) plus some plyometrics all rolled up into a fitness run for example:

set up a 30m/40m/50m sprint the long side, divide the 40 m side into two twenty meter segments for drilling or skipping and walk the 30m side. When you get to the end of one triangle, do some in-place low impact plyos (low to high jumps, etc) Example: run the 50m side, do 20m a-skip, 20m lungewalk, walk the 30m side then do 30 seconds of low-to-high jumps--do this continuously for the duration of the run. Later on, you can do bounding on the 40m side.

wk1--2 x 8 mins; wk2--2 x 9 minutes; wk3--2 x 10 minutes; wk 4--2 x 8 minutes.

Friday:

Another combined run--some sprints, some jumps, some hills, some stairs, some box jumps--make it up--kind of like a fartlek but more fun after all, this is the fall.

Saturday:

wk1--6 x 200m; one every 2 minutes wk2--7 x 200m; wk3--8 x 200m; wk4--6 x 200m.

Sunday:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz or active rest in the pool.

Also do 3-4 morning runs of 5 - 6 miles.

Not every type of 800 meter runner would respond best to that training. It obviously has worked well for you, however.

The 800m more than any event depends on the individual. While there may be little variance in the schedules of 10k/marathon, or 100-200 types, there is a great deal of variance in the approaches of 800m runners. For the 800, you truly do train the INDIVIDUAL, not the event (as you do for any event to some extent, but there is greater variance in the 800 than any other event).

That being said, based on the very little information we have been provided (from which no one could give a truly ideal schedule.. no one can be an optimal coach unless they are on site from day to day), this individual will probably not optimally benefit from this speed/power oriented approach that you have outlined.

A 53 in the 400 indicates he is not someone with a lot of fast twitch fibers (even if his PR in the 1600 is just 4:50.. that just means he needs more time to train the aerobic engine), and all the power work in the world will not bring him to 47/48 400 speed necessary to run low 150s on the speed oriented schedule you have.

I believe, based on this little information, he would be better served developing his speed, but putting more focus and priority on developing aerobically. I think if he spends a good amount of time working on basic speed and efficiency (lifting weights, hill work, some light plyos, drills, a weekly sprint work out), he can eventually bring his 400 time to 50 (and maybe even 49 in a few years). 50 (even 51 in some rare cases) is sufficient for low 1:50s in the 800. With 50 sec. 400 speed and good endurance (which will take some time to develop), he can put a 55/57 together for low 1:50s.

I think your plan will breed more success than the speed oriented plan. Most great 800 runners believe in a strong aerobic base.

First I would have to say that I believe in both training advices that were give by posters above. I only run around 35mpw but I was a 20-25mpw runner when I ran my first 1:50xxx. The best advice I could give the OP would be to get an awareness of pace of and speed. You may only be a :53 400 runner but with enough 800 specific work without focusing so much on your 400 you will see it drop down to :51 before you know it.

Also I belive that you should set your first goal on breaking 1:57. Then your next goal on 1:55, and so on from there. Saying you are a 2:01 runner and want to go low 1:50's is not impossible but you will frustrate yourself trying to shoot for something too far out of reach at first. The best way to go in saying hey I want to run sub 1:57 and if you hit 1:55/56 that will give you confidence towards your next race. I have a handful of workouts I would be willing to give you to enhance both your speed and endurance. I will give some examples and if you want you can email me and I'll send some more.

ex.) 6x400 with the first 300 at 75% then the last 100 all-out, this will work on turnover, rest would be 2-2:30

800 break-up, set your goal pace say 1:55, do the first 100 at 14 then a 400 jog, then 400 from where you ended the 100 in about 56 high-57, followed by 400 jog and then do the last 300 as you would a finish in an 800 (start off building up at the 300 and as you hit the 200 get ready for your kick and by the 150 you should be almost all out or ready to shift into that last gear. you can repeat this, for the first time you do this only do it twice then as you get stronger make it to 3 sets

You need a much bigger engine, undoubtedly. Set goals for a sub 15 5K to coincide with that low 1:50 800. The 1:45 guy in this thread has some good thoughts on speed, see which work for you. Work up to doing 2-3 x 5K at half-marathon pace with 2-5 minutes rest between.

Give me money wrote:

I think your plan will breed more success than the speed oriented plan. Most great 800 runners believe in a strong aerobic base.

I think it would be hard for any one to know what most "great" 800 runners believe. However, if you look at world class 800m runners you will see that many of them are unable to run a world class 1500--pointing to the fact that the 800 requires less aerobic ability (and thus, less "aerobic" training). But, this has been a very fair and balanced thread--which I thank you for as I was (apologies) a little snarky at the top.

Here are somethings to consider in regards to "aerobic" training

1) aerobic training increases aerobic enzymes (but anaerobic enzymes are required to produce energy anaerobically).

2) there is some degree of use to aerobic training due to the positive physical changes that occur with aerobic training such as increased left ventrical size, capillarization, better recovery, etc but it also has a negative effect on other physical attributes such as extension of titin (elastic protein in the sarcomere), causes stiffness of the connective tissue, hypotrophy of the muscle fiber. So, there needs to be a balance--especially consider that you can get a fitness response while still getting the elasticity that you need by doing dynamic things over a 20 - 30 minute period. You can also explore strength at the ends of your ROM by doing broad movements, etc. Also consider that dynamic movements require a powerful reaction from the heart muscle because they require a higher heart rate. You can get the same average HR over a period of 20 - 30 minutes by interspersing sprints with drills and plyos. The heart rate that you get during a distance run is never comparable to that of an 800.

Since the attributes of distance running and distance runners are so different from that of the 800m, what attributes of running distance do you believe are helpful for running an 800m? (not snark, I'm really curious).

[quote]1:45.78 wrote:

I think it would be hard for any one to know what most "great" 800 runners believe. However, if you look at world class 800m runners you will see that many of them are unable to run a world class 1500--pointing to the fact that the 800 requires less aerobic ability (and thus, less "aerobic" training). quote]

Looking at World and American all-time lists, I would say the majority of 800m runners fall into two categories:

1.) not world class at 400 OR 1500 meters

AND

2.) world class at 1500 AND 800 meters

The thing that stands out to me about your best times is that your 400 is quite superior to your 800, which is quite superior to your mile, which is quite superior to your 5k.

Regardless which advice you decide to follow, and the posters seem knowledgable, I would also try to incorporate workouts that would even out your performance curve.

1:45.78 I think you have some great points. Speaking from a guy who has run under 1:46. Increasing the aerobic system helps with handling workouts that will get this kid to Low 1:50's in acouple of years. I know for a fact that the Top 800 meter runners in the USA stress distance running in different phases. Plyos, Sprints etc... should be done year around.

I love this thread.

Have to agree wtih 1:45Low -- there is a combination of the power/sprint/weights/circuits/plyos with the "strength" training of tempos/mileage/800m-1k cut downs/ hill repeats that blends to give you speed endurance.

I never did ANY strength training in college and stalled out at 147, but added in tempo runs afterward and dropped 2 seconds in a year. I couldnt explain why a 4-6 mile run would help my 800m and during the training year had my doubts (plus they were excrutiating). I think pressing that anaroebic threshhold helps you hold any pace for longer, and you can add in the enzymatic specific portion in the last 6-8 peaking phase -- the endocrin system habituates the quickest and would make you stale if you are keeping too sharp during the 8 months of base training.

800m men will be limited by your basic speed. to run 1:52 you are probably splitting 55 with comfort, which means you need to be able to run sub 52 at the very slowest imho.

To make certain you dont get lost in the monotony of doing plyos and weights during the winter, test your vertical and horizontal standing jumps every 2-3 weeks so you can see the improvement. It keeps you motivated, and is a decent indicator of the plyometric power you are building in your legs.

I think you are not characterizing my argument appriopriately. I did not recommend pure "distance" training for this athlete or any 800 meter runner. If you present my argument as such, of course it will be easy to attack and your argument will be comparatively stronger. Read what I wrote more carefully and respond.

I think most people would agree that a 16 year old high school runner's training during the fall would look dramatically different than a 26 year old approaching the competitive season. As such, at his young age I think a solid aerobic foundation (not all out distance training, but a foundation) is important. He is not old enough to do all the anaerobic work necessary for a great 800 (lots of anaerobic running at a young age is very detrimental, this is well-documented).

I also do not believe he is quite ready for extensive plyometric work. He needs years of preliminary work before he is ready to do some of the things you recommend; he is simply not ready for depth jumps and all that jazz. For now, a steady diet of hill running (not even hill sprints yet, not to mention hill bounding or plyos), basic form drills (more elaborate stuff can come later, for now focus on perfecting basic high knees, butt kicks, etc.), and some general strength work in the gym will prepare him for eventually doing lots of explosive exercises that will really get him fast.

1:51.23 has a good point.

Remember, this is a high school kid. Even with something like plometrics, you should look at a long term approach. Things like light hill sprints, A/B skips, bounds are things that will form the "base work" in the area of explosive/elastic type training for later advancement in this area.

There's no reason he can't just be doing easy mileage and strides during the summer with some light drills every now and then- maybe some hurdle drills to stay flexible.

A moderate blend of basic endurance, basic threshold development, basic running economy, basic speed development and basic plyometrics during the high school years will do this kid a huge favor for the 4-5 years after he graduates.

Remember, to improve he'll have to add or intensify something each year: change a variable each year. You can't start a program like 1:45 said when you're 16 or whatever and think you're going to progress for 8-10 years. That might be something for down the road, however, when he's ready to give it his last shot at his peak physical level.

Does anyone have a good reference for plyometrics, drills, and lifting exercises that have been mentioned in this thread? I'm not that familiar with this sort of stuff but I'd be interested to do some research. Where should I start? Thanks.

1:45.78, i am very interested in the plan you laid out. i was hoping you could answer a couple of questions about it.

1) what would a typical warmup and cooldown look like for these workouts?

2) are there any weight lifting (olympic lifts etc) in the program?

3) could you show me what a typical week in the competition phase would be (race week) following this type of training?

4) could you suggests any of the circuits you use for the thursday or friday workouts?

thanks in advance and sorry for digging up this old thread