Interval training question

My somewhat informed opinion is that the 1,000 meter rep athlete would be burned out well before the end of the season. Runner three taking the middle course performs better, and maintains fitness by end of season. My opinion would be based upon athletes performing the repetitions using Daniels definition of interval pace.

I appreciate your insight. I was definitely considering the igloi/schul style of training when asking the question.

So Schul doing his 20x400m workout was right in the sweet spot for him- a short enough repetition that he could still maintain speed/volume for an entire session?

Using him as the example- could anyone argue that his 20x400m would have been better as 8x1000m or even 80x100m for his 5k performance in 1964?

I think the question is irrelevant, since constructing a training regime should not be composed of absolutes. Certainly 80 x 100 meters seems ridiculous. I glanced over Schul’s book the Long Run and find no reference to the 20 x 400 meter session(s).

Having trained under Igloi as a slower but still quick 19 year old, my reference is that similar sessions were rare, and completed in advance of the competitive season. As a 14:04 three miler I ran 4 x (4 x 400m @ 3 = 62, 1 = 59 / 200m jog) 400 meters between sets. After this I ran 12 x 200m @ alternating 3 very hard, and 1 all out with 200 meter jog between. Igloi timed them, but did not read out times. So, these were faster than 5,000 meter race pace, and as mentioned these sessions were done infrequently. You never repeated the same training sessions. Most of the year were larger sets of various distances, untimed. Morning practices ran 45:00-1:00; evening 60:00-2:30.

Why not just do rotate all 5 of those workouts across the season?

You might even sequence them, so that you start with the least stressful (100m reps) and end with the most stressful (1k reps), before beginning the next cycle.

In the 2nd cycle, you could either increase the total reps or shorten the recoveries between each, and so on...

Each workout provides a slightly different stimulus, and so you'd end up with a more rounded athlete.

The interval is actually the recovery portion.

Depends on what the rep pace is. If lactate threshold pace alternative 1and 2 will "win". If maxVO2 5 k pace alternative 3 will "win' close followed by alternative 4.

400m reps are very common among the Kenyan top runners training for 800m races and up to marathon. As Ghost of Igloi told 400m reps ( at 5 k race pace) are perfect to execute week after week without burnout and at the same time improve the runners energy economy at the same pace.🧙🏼‍♂️

Bob Schul did loads of 200s. One of the big takeaways for me from his book is how he advocated walking, not jogging, between reps. Enables you to run higher quality reps. His theory was that your heart does know the difference between walking and jogging.

That and keeping your HR below 80% of MHR. These workouts feel wonderful because they don't take huge toll on your body and CNS.

I've seen some of his posts on LRC over the years (RIP 2024)

I would assume walking would be OK for a novice or masters athlete. The problem with walking is the heart rate drops too low, and athletes generally with too much recovery, go too fast. I can tell you when I trained under Igloi there were young high school athletes. No one walked. You could jog the rest interval slow, within reason. Too slow, and you might hear “ My grandmother could run faster.”

The debate what's most effective walking easy or jogging easy as the interval rest has gone on for many years. Already before Igloi the also famous coach Woldemar Gerschler and his Ph compatriot Reindel found out through scientific studies the heart grow strongest and the blood strike volume maxed by using easy walk or standing still rest back to 120-130 bpm before next rep got executed.This way the individual body ( heart) tells itself when it's ready for next rep/ effort instead of forcing the rest period to be less and less. To sum this up scientific studies I have read gives jog or walk easy between reps when doing intervals training about the same effective results.I also see this is the practical outcome in my own successful online coaching for now 10 years ( and in my national running elite days back in the -80s,)have been coaching elites and runners at all levels all over the world. 🇸🇪🧙🏼‍♂️🇸🇪

Thanks for response. I suppose I am coming at this from perspective of masters runner where jogging often feels more painful than running at good clip. Its just more unnecessary pounding of the joints with minimal or no benefit.

I've come to appreciate Klaas Lok's Easy Interval Method which theorizes that jogging/slow paces deadens the stride or "reactivity" of the legs as he calls it. I've found this to be true.

Point taken about going too fast especially for HS kids. To that point, Schul emphasized pace discipline. It certainly worked for him!

Agreed. I walk myself between reps. As noted it is all about heart rate in interval training. Most of my reference has to do with the OP to training high school athletes. As such, believe walking would have them recovering too much, running too fast. Checking heart rates impractical. Again my experience as a coach here.

I agree with that Coach Wizard. By the way, Igloi studied under Gerschler. I just feel young athletes would have a tendency to recover too much, and run too fast by walking. Then again the coach could monitor, and as conditioning improved jog recovery.

How about running at 5-10k pace until your heart rate reaches 80 percent of max, then walk until reaches 65 percent, repeat for 45 minutes?

Runners should do more than one of these workouts. Individually they will have little impact on which runner is the fastest. Factors like the rest of the training they do will have the biggest impact. If they come in with similar times and training backgrounds, runners 1, 2, and 3 will be about equal and all will be slower than runner 6 who isn't trained by a goof.

Or terminate workout when heart takes more than 90 seconds to recover?

That is how I back into my interval rep length and pace. Try different rest period durations until I hit 65%. Obviously you need longer rest period as you get deeper into the session. Set breaks also help keep my HR down below 80% although Klaas Lok essentially says don't fret about spiking HR on the short intervals within reason.

I just find it easier to use time intervals rather than either distance (no track) or HR since you're looking at watch constantly.

BTW, there are some great phone apps for interval running. I have used Second Pro for years. Freaking love that app. There is custom setting where you can tweak all the variables. Get some over the ear Shokz-style headphones and you are set!

Use of heart rate is fine. Likely less practical for large group of athletes.

I push back on your premise. Do a mix of all. You need them all in a race.

At what point in Schul's development was he doing this workout? Was it high school? Was he a freshman? or was it when he was a college runner?

All too often I see HS coaches looking at the workouts of elite, mature runners and having their HS runners do them. That is a bad, bad thing.