Can't hold 800m pace

Tell us about the rest of your training, comparing now to previous years. Also, share any dietary changes, or other life changes, such as work/sleep schedule, marriages, divorces, births, and deaths, so we can see the total picture. That is the only way to diagnose it properly.

What are current times for 400/800?

What has the trajectory of these times been since those PRs ?

Any injuries or covid or anything during this timeframe?

Ok, so when I started running I had no idea what I was doing. Only peaked at 40km per week or so, easy runs were like 30-45mins, autumn training was a lot of moderate intervals twice a week, one speed session (hill sprints) and some easy. In spring I did less km/week, 2 hard track workouts, some easy running and every once in a while moderate intervals. So that's the starting position. My 400m back then was like 55-56 and 800m was 2:08.

It took like 1-2 years to realize I was in a bad aerobic state, and since I have proven that. Also because I have figured good enough approximates for my heart rate thresholds (aerobic and anaerobic), and using the heart rate monitor has helped me improve my aerobic side because now its in control.

So my PR season 2 years ago, I did at off-season like 60-70km/week, here's a two week example from November:

Week 1: Easy 30', broken threshold, easy 60', 5x1km progressive (10K down to 5K) + 4x200m fast hills, 90' long run, 60' run with some diagonals (like broken threshold)

Week 2: pretty much same but hill sprints instead of diagonals.

In the early spring I progressed that the intervals got faster (like classic 600-800m repeats at 3K pace), hill sprints to flat sprints 100-200m at 400m speed and also 1 track session of 800m pace work. Late-spring I put the longer intervals to maintance mode, same as 400m speed and do 1 hard 800m session (like 3x400m / 4-5' + 4x200 / 30") and other moderate (more like rhythm 8x200m at progressive paces) and keep in touch with the longer intervals and pure speed every once in a while. Threshold still once in a week but like 75% of the volume compared to off-season.

So what's changed after the PR season? I don't do long runs anymore, but 2x60' easy per week (off season). I also do some doubles now (easy 30' in the morning and threshold in evening). That's mainly because I noticed I started to feel really flat even couple of days after the long runs. Off-season long intervals have more variation, I also started doing easy 800m pace work in the winter that I didn't do before (like easy 4x200m at race pace / 2'). Strength training has more variation now. Even in the PR season it was pretty no-sense (like training separate muscle groups like basic gymbro), now it's more complex with whole body movements and runner specific exercises. I did and still do plyometrics year round, emphasis on spring and maintance elsewhere. That I like a lot. Spring and summer pretty much the same, a bit more mileage as I try to maintain the levels when I get older. Oh and my 400m PR is also from that season as well. After the PR season got some slight achilles issue, was basically off the following autumn but nothing now. So that's what has changed training wise after.

Haven't raced any 800m this season yet because I'm a bit afraid of the times. In the spring did in the same training 2 solid 300m repeats near max under 40", so I guess the 400m PR speed is there. Also did this staple 6x800m at 3K pace faster than before, threshold paces also better than before. Also I can do some solid speed endurance sessions like 2-3x(300 at 800m, 200m @400m and 100m all out / 90" / what's necessary), actually couple of weeks back I hit averages of 45,5", 27,2" and 12,9" in that workout. But as said, if I try to hit more than 300m at 800m pace my legs are on fire.

No deaths, babies, changes in work. Got my masters degree this spring, nutrition wise no changes. Got COVID at 2022 spring, probably after that as well but because it's not a tested much in my country anymore, I have no accurate info. The only change is I got diagnosed with Gastroesophageal reflux disease (I had to Google it's English name, probably it's right) this June, but I got a medication for it now.

This is a bit long reply, but I tried to be precise.

Overtrained. You have built up fatigue. 3 weeks of rest and easy runs will recharge you. Then for get about high speed work and focus on medium speed work. Intervals of 500m and 1k. and tempos of 2k and 3k.

As you suggest, it should be easier for you as you've gotten faster. So you have increased power but diminished energy systems available. Time to recharge the battery.

Yea that could be it. Especially in the spring I always try to hold myself back because it's tempting to go to the track, as I enjoy the training much more than winter (I live in a snowy country so winters sucks here). So it's a high chance I have pushed it too much when I transition to the track workouts for multiple seasons ina row now.

I know it's not probably optimal, but I would still like to race some 800m races this summer. What are your thoughts is it much more harmful if for the rest of the summer I drastically cut the training sessions and do some races, and from September I have this complete off period and start to plan my next season much more carefully?

My thoughts are;

1. Have the down period as discussed.

2. Don't worry about the sessions and use your races to train.

3. This season is far from over.

4. You already know you're faster than ever so focus on tempo work and keep it consistent, regular and light.

don't be a doofus, if you are overtrained or having a health problem you ease way up/shut down now to get well so that there can be a meaningful sequel. all more training and continued racing is going to do is extend out the frustration and perhaps deepen the problems.

think priorities. think long term. you aren't a pro. but even a pro preserves the moneymaker if they are hurt or sick enough. and you aren't well and are doing bad results. who extends that out on purpose just so they can say they are still running? i got anemic and my 5k ballooned. once i realized what was happening, do you think i kept running XC meets to make some weird point? nah, i shut down. when i came back i PRd.

i think you're running too many miles -- more than some women who will be on the medal stand this summer at 800 -- and IMO mileage takes away the top gears.

Probably an issue with your lactate threshold/ Vo2Max training, BUT, you’re probably over thinking it. 800m pace especially with how fast you are is very hard on the body to maintain for more than 300m. Think about how strained you feel 400-500m into an all out 800m race.

Things that could benefit you right now are 50-150m sprints to develop your speed reserve and make 800m pace feel calmer, 400-600m reps at 4:40-5:00 pace so you can have solid turnover and aerobic activation without taking your body to the well, and 3:00-6:00 reps at 5:30-6:00 pace to further develop your cardiovascular system and your ability to use blood lactate as fuel.

Lots of pro caliber 400/800m types, so guys that are running 800m in faster than 1:48 will run their 400m reps in that 65-70 range. If you can get your body comfortable and unfazed by doing that, shifting a gear to 60 second laps will only be mildly uncomfortable. If you can get your 400m down to 52-53 you’ll have a speed reserve on the other side of the coin and not feel like you are sprinting during a 58-60 second lap.

I agree with the opinion that you probably overcooked yourself a little bit. very easy to do while training for the 800 cause optimal performance is always an inch away from overtraining when balancing top speed and high end aerobic requirements. down period would help, though I'd keep some amount of short speed work in and probably strides but cut back on everything else. I'll also offer this opinion: running further than 300m at 800 pace in a workout is always hard. when I've done sessions of 400m repeats at race pace or similar, those sessions have me feeling completely cooked but thats just a part of the game. you know how your body is supposed to feel though and if something is off listen to it. I'd say if you feel like racing some 800s might as well. I'd argue that since you're not a pro, theres much less of a reason to purposely hold back cause the biggest thing you have to lose is some ego points. if you run bad and aren't having fun, just throw in the towel for a few weeks. if you run good (or bad but its still fun) then just keep racing while keeping a lower work load.

You can't be serious. 300m reps at 800 pace is incredibly difficult. The problem isn't your fitness, you're trying to do intervals that are far too fast and hard. You very rarely see milers trying to do 800s or 1ks at mile pace.

Just for clarity you wouldn't be able to do something like 3 x 400m w./ full (3:00-4:00) rest @ 61/62? Could just be that you're overtrained/not quite in the same kind of shape. It is interesting that your strength work seems to be improving but your racing isn't seeing those gains. You seem like a speed based runner: 400 > 800 > 1500. I would've thought that the strength stuff would help. Maybe more mile workouts versus the 5k/10k stuff. Volume 200-400s. Maybe you overcooked it by including the 800 specific workouts in your base build instead of just doing speed development. 300+ reps @ 800 pace are difficult & more/less require full rest. Maybe think about workout design & how you're feeling going into those sessions. You want to be fresh & give yourself the right rest to get through them. Maybe it's as simple as checking some other boxes in your training weeks. Minimum 2 days easy before an 800 specific session. In season 1 800 specific session/week. Good sleep. Working out with a full breakfast. Working out at whatever time of day you do best at. Etc.

Thanks everyone for the responses, really appreciated! Will put deep thoughts on that and even though you're not gonna probably read the posts later, gonna post here what I ended up with and how the rest of the season did go.

It also came to my mind this can also be some cycle of proving myself that I'm fit: can't do 400m repeat session like I used to -> gonna do some other hard stuff -> delay the racing season -> delay the end of the prep-season -> overdo things and then wonder why I'm not that fast anymore.

If he's not injured 3 weeks of down time and easy mileage should sort OP out.

I think he's just underperforming so probably a bit of built up fatigue.

I also ran a lot quicker after a 3 week holiday and I didn't even realise I had been fatigued. The comparative power I felt in my stride when I came back was like nothing I had ever felt.

The hardest part for OP will be the discipline not to go hard during this rest period.

Yeah maybe you’re over cooked. Try not doing an 800 workout every week. If your doing 3x400 at 800 pace you need 5min or more rest. One week do your 800 workout and the next a miler workout with some 800 pace at the end (eg 6-8x400 @ mile pace then 4x200 @ 800 pace) this could also be a fartlek where you focus on effort and not the splits. The second workout should be a shorter threshold workout where cruise intervals i think would be better for you.

Been taking easy now, just some easy running with couple of strides.

On a holiday right now and visited friends on another city and there was some local 800m race so I spontaneously decided to race it to get the season opener. After the race I feel this issue might be also a bit mental / trusting my own pace lol. Started the race really cautious because I was afraid I'm not in shape, 0-200 and 200-400 split were both 33"low and after seeing the first lap time, got pissed off because of the pace cranked the last 400m in 60"low. The first lap didn't felt hard but surprisingly not that easy either, no idea how I was able to crank 60" last lap. Final time under 2:07 which I'm obviously not happy with, but it was tactically so poor that it gave hope. Weird race, only second time ever running the second lap faster and this was completely off the optimal.

So for context I’m a 10th grade middle distance guy. I run 53 in the 400m and 2:04 (in indoor) in the 800m and one of my big goals this year was to break 2. Unfortunately I wasn’t able to do that and now I’m wondering where I went wrong. My weekly mileage was around 35-45 depending on where I was in the season. And I was consistently running sub two paces in 200m, 300m and 400m repeat workouts. For example one of my workouts was 6x200m with 45 seconds rest in between the first 3 400m jog and 45 seconds of rest in between the second three. I hit in between 29-27. So I’m wondering where I went wrong this season.

If you ran 2:07 in this race with a 66 first lap, its worth at minimum 2:04 in my eyes. I'd keep up your rest period and just go out in 61/62 next time see how that goes. if it goes well, go out slightly harder again.

Yea, that could be. Thanks!

If it hasn't been said, recommend incorporating weight training and core exercises as well. Deadlift, cleans, and back squat definitely helped with my 800m development (I was a 1:55 guy back in HS). Also, a solid core routine is must.