at what point does a mileage load negatively impact any speed development workouts? At what load would speed gains be maximized? Would it make sense for an 800m runner to spend a training block purposely neglecting mileage/aerobic development to improve top speed? Like summer of mileage/aerobic work —> fall of speed development—> winter of combining both elements —> spring of specific training
just do hard strides and lift a bit of weights when youre doing a lot of volume. speed will come right back a few weeks after ur into race specific work
It’s all relative. A newer runner hitting 50 mpw for the first time might be tired and feel like they don’t have pop. A veteran that can crank out 90 mile weeks like it’s nothing will feel totally fine and it wont impact their work outs.
"You don't lose speed by running distances. You lose speed by not working on speed." Arthur Lydiard
yeah but there’s a reason why sprinters don’t really do mileage, it impacts your ability to develop speed since your body is carrying extra fatigue. Sure you still get some benefit but you’re definitely leaving some gains on the table. I feel like most people at this point acknowledge that your sprint ability is the limiting factor in high level 800m running. So would it make sense to fully maximize those gains for a training block then switch to maintenance with a full mileage load for the rest of the year? or is the trade off of a mileage load too important to sacrifice for a full 8 weeks
"You don't lose speed by running distances. You lose speed by not working on speed." Arthur Lydiard
yeah but there’s a reason why sprinters don’t really do mileage, it impacts your ability to develop speed since your body is carrying extra fatigue. Sure you still get some benefit but you’re definitely leaving some gains on the table. I feel like most people at this point acknowledge that your sprint ability is the limiting factor in high level 800m running. So would it make sense to fully maximize those gains for a training block then switch to maintenance with a full mileage load for the rest of the year? or is the trade off of a mileage load too important to sacrifice for a full 8 weeks
In the fifty seven years I've been around the sport I've decided that the main reason sprinters don't do mileage is that they don't want to. Bud Winter did have his sprinters running mileage when San Jose State was "Speed City." Obviously they weren't doing the kind of mileage distance runners did but it was a lot more than most people would expect from sprinters.He did not fear that the miles would harm their speed.
But we're talking about the 800, not the sprints and I'm not sure that most people would acknowledge that the main limiting factor in your 800 performance is your sprinting ability. Lydiard did not acknowledge that, which is not to say that he didn't recognize its importance. He did recognize that there were times to do one sort of work and other times to do other sorts of work. Snell was not doing the volume when he was focusing on reps or in his race phase as he did in his base phase. So you shouldn't take that quote to mean he wanted you doing 100 mile weeks even when you're getting close to your race season. What he meant is that you shouldn't limit the mileage you're doing when you're in a "volume" mode because the volume itself will slow you.
at what point does a mileage load negatively impact any speed development workouts? At what load would speed gains be maximized? Would it make sense for an 800m runner to spend a training block purposely neglecting mileage/aerobic development to improve top speed? Like summer of mileage/aerobic work —> fall of speed development—> winter of combining both elements —> spring of specific training
When you’re tired or insufficiently recovered for your speed work.
yeah but there’s a reason why sprinters don’t really do mileage, it impacts your ability to develop speed since your body is carrying extra fatigue. Sure you still get some benefit but you’re definitely leaving some gains on the table. I feel like most people at this point acknowledge that your sprint ability is the limiting factor in high level 800m running. So would it make sense to fully maximize those gains for a training block then switch to maintenance with a full mileage load for the rest of the year? or is the trade off of a mileage load too important to sacrifice for a full 8 weeks
In the fifty seven years I've been around the sport I've decided that the main reason sprinters don't do mileage is that they don't want to. Bud Winter did have his sprinters running mileage when San Jose State was "Speed City." Obviously they weren't doing the kind of mileage distance runners did but it was a lot more than most people would expect from sprinters.He did not fear that the miles would harm their speed.
But we're talking about the 800, not the sprints and I'm not sure that most people would acknowledge that the main limiting factor in your 800 performance is your sprinting ability. Lydiard did not acknowledge that, which is not to say that he didn't recognize its importance. He did recognize that there were times to do one sort of work and other times to do other sorts of work. Snell was not doing the volume when he was focusing on reps or in his race phase as he did in his base phase. So you shouldn't take that quote to mean he wanted you doing 100 mile weeks even when you're getting close to your race season. What he meant is that you shouldn't limit the mileage you're doing when you're in a "volume" mode because the volume itself will slow you.
I would say that most of modern training theory for the 800 is at odds with lydiardism but thats not really too important to this conversation. I feel like the main disagreement is that you don't think speed would be the limiting factor for the 800m. if that was the case (meaning that aerobic ability would be the limiting factor) then jakob could just start doing some 800 specific work and would be running 1:42 but we both know that that isn't the case since he probably can't go faster than 47.9 for 400m and the top guys in the 800m run closer to 46 flat when peaked up. if you need to go out in 53 high for your first lap to break 1:50, its a hell of a lot easier to do that and not blow up if you can run a 400 under 50 seconds. its obvious to me that 800m runners need to do their aerobic work, they need to have a mileage load to be prepared to run their best times. but wouldn't it also make sense that for the sake of improving a specific quality (speed) you'd take a purposeful downcycle from mileage? I'll use myself as an example. I usually peak at around 55mpw, higher end for some college 800m guys but definitely not what I would consider "high mileage". even when adjusted to this load, I feel like doing an 50-70 minute run on either side of a speed development day, or doing a double in the evening on a day where I did flying 30s to hit mileage, takes away from the effectiveness of that training stimulus. If you're doing 4-6 miles for your mileage days instead, would it not make a meaningful difference in speed dev because you'd be able to come into sessions fresher and have better recovery between workouts (aka stronger affect and absorption of a stimulus on the body)? in this thought exercise after ~2 months of this speed focused cycle you'd just return to your mileage load. could you share more on your perspective in opposition to this view?
I did not say that I didn't believe speed is a limiting factor in your 800 performance. How can it not be? But if you haven't got the endurance to use that speed having it does little good. And if you touch on your speed while working on endurance you'll be fine.
But we're talking about the 800, not the sprints and I'm not sure that most people would acknowledge that the main limiting factor in your 800 performance is your sprinting ability. Lydiard did not acknowledge that, which is not to say that he didn't recognize its importance. He did recognize that there were times to do one sort of work and other times to do other sorts of work.
I'm sorry if I misconstrued this as your own opinion. You referenced lydiard as if he's the leading mind on 800m running (which may have been true in 1960 but it sure isn't true today) so I wasn't sure of your own take on the matter. I'll agree that endurance is a necessary part of 800m work, but you seem to believe its the most important part. I would challenge that opinion, especially if you're meaning endurance in the "traditional" distance runner-esc sense where you build up your miles do your tempos and then taper. I've yet to hear a real reason for why my theory of a dedicated speed block would be less beneficial than just holding your mileage and "touching on your speed" as you put it. if you can't break 50 for 400m you'd almost certainly never break 1:50. but training for sub 50 (or as close to it as you can manage) is a tangible thing you can do and I think its common sense to think that to maximize the gains from that training, you shouldn't dilute it's effects by not compromising on distance work. improving speed is hard, maintaining it less so. if you want to race your best in may/june, (or later for the pros) having 8 weeks of lower mileage from august-september or sept-oct I don't think would hurt your performance. not having sizeable improvements in your top speed (up to your natural limit, which in most "distance" focused 800m runners is usually never reached) definitely will limit how fast you can run later in the year.
For pure sprinters, yes. However, since you're asking about 800 speed, no, not at all.
Granted, it's hard to work high quality sprint training into very high mileage training blocks, but most 800m guys never really need to do super high mileage.
For pure sprinters, yes. However, since you're asking about 800 speed, no, not at all.
Granted, it's hard to work high quality sprint training into very high mileage training blocks, but most 800m guys never really need to do super high mileage.
but thats where I seem to be missing understanding...the idea behind speed reserve means improving your top speed to then make each successive pace a lower percentage of your max ability making them easier to run with the necessary specific training that accompanies any race. so then would it not make sense to have a strictly dedicated time of year where you're getting the most (or at least more) out of yourself in terms of speed gains? It just seems to me if you enter the year with 51.5 400m speed and exit your speed focused training block sitting at 50.5 that'll make a difference once you start adding in your more specific 800m work rather than hoping to eek out that same improvement (less efficiently and likely less effectively) over the course of the whole year via smaller, not as well absorbed doses of speed work. I don't have evidence other than anecdotal experience but when I'm in my normal mileage load of high 40s to mid 50s, I just feel like I'm not getting the most out of my speed sessions. thats why I made this thread, because its seems logical to me that you should integrate a time in your year long training season to focus on sprint speed as your main priority and I'm hoping to have someone either explain how that doesn't make sense to do, or offer their own experiences with training that way....aka whats the mileage limit you've found for yourself that you have still experienced measurable improvements (post puberty) in speed?
In the fifty seven years I've been around the sport I've decided that the main reason sprinters don't do mileage is that they don't want to. Bud Winter did have his sprinters running mileage when San Jose State was "Speed City." Obviously they weren't doing the kind of mileage distance runners did but it was a lot more than most people would expect from sprinters.He did not fear that the miles would harm their speed.
But we're talking about the 800, not the sprints and I'm not sure that most people would acknowledge that the main limiting factor in your 800 performance is your sprinting ability. Lydiard did not acknowledge that, which is not to say that he didn't recognize its importance. He did recognize that there were times to do one sort of work and other times to do other sorts of work. Snell was not doing the volume when he was focusing on reps or in his race phase as he did in his base phase. So you shouldn't take that quote to mean he wanted you doing 100 mile weeks even when you're getting close to your race season. What he meant is that you shouldn't limit the mileage you're doing when you're in a "volume" mode because the volume itself will slow you.
I would say that most of modern training theory for the 800 is at odds with lydiardism but thats not really too important to this conversation.
It may be. Lydiardism has produced 800 times that most would still love to run today. Thus, it ist still a valid method for 800 training for most (ie anyone not knocking on the door of making nationals). This is doubly so if an 800 runner is a school athlete expected to contribute in xc or another, longer distance on the track.
"You don't lose speed by running distances. You lose speed by not working on speed." Arthur Lydiard
+1000
Incorporate strides, hills, drills, and weights year round and you will never lose your speed.
Sure but you also aren’t getting in miles when you spend half your training time doing drills, sprints, weights,….
where the line is depends on the athlete. Pretty easy to do like 50-60mpw with 30 easy every morning, and then evening workouts getting you another 5 miles of work. On the rest days just do 40 mins easy. But that is time consuming…
Incorporate strides, hills, drills, and weights year round and you will never lose your speed.
Sure but you also aren’t getting in miles when you spend half your training time doing drills, sprints, weights,….
where the line is depends on the athlete. Pretty easy to do like 50-60mpw with 30 easy every morning, and then evening workouts getting you another 5 miles of work. On the rest days just do 40 mins easy. But that is time consuming…
It takes 10 minutes after a run to do strides. Hills are a standard workout. Drills take 10 minutes before a workout. Weights take 1 hour 2x per week. It's not as much time as you think, especially for professional athletes.
50-60 mpw is very low for a competitive distance runner. An aerobically inclined 800m runner should be training like a competitive distance runner, i.e. 70-120 mpw with most workouts being focused on improving your aerobic ability.
An anaerobically inclined 800m runner (one with a greater natural proportion of Type IIx fibers) would not train like this at all, and not even do 50-60 mpw. A runner like this is best trained on 30-45 mpw with a year-round emphasis on speed and power.
Too many people try to do both and end up worse for it. The 800m is an event that sits at the exact crossroads of anaerobic and aerobic energy requirements, so whichever you have a natural predisposition for should be your focus. Train to your strengths, not your weaknesses.
Jumbo Elliot coached loads of good half milers in his time and I once read a comment of his along the lines of "You can be a good half miler with good endurance and not much speed or having good speed and average endurance." Yeah, that was a long time ago. More recently, though also not real recently I read an article that Ingrid Kristansen put on her website referencing a big university study, how to word this clearly, re -evaluating requirements for aerobic and anaerobic fitness for every track event. The article's point was that every distance down to and including the 400 required considerably more aerobic fitness than previously believed. If I get really ambitious and/or bored later maybe I'll try to find it. Ralph Doubell set the Australian 800 record at the '68 Olympics and stood until sometime in the last two (?) years. When he was asked why no other Aussie had broken his record he said it was because they weren't running enough mileage.
When Arthur began working with an athlete one of the first things he did was have the athlete run an all out 200. If the athlete could not run at least 24 seconds (men, obviously) he thought the guy did not have enough speed to be a top track guy. I'm absolutely not suggesting that speed is not important for an ambitious 800 runner. I also absolutely acknowledge that there have been many good 800 runners who succeeded on pretty low volume. I'd expect most of them are more 400/800 type runners while ones who are 800/1500 types probably are doing more volume.
Again, I'm not arguing that speed doesn't matter for an 800 runner. I'm arguing that mileage is not going to impede that speed as long as you don't ignore working on speed while you're doing the mileage.
For pure sprinters, yes. However, since you're asking about 800 speed, no, not at all.
Granted, it's hard to work high quality sprint training into very high mileage training blocks, but most 800m guys never really need to do super high mileage.
but thats where I seem to be missing understanding...the idea behind speed reserve means improving your top speed to then make each successive pace a lower percentage of your max ability making them easier to run with the necessary specific training that accompanies any race. so then would it not make sense to have a strictly dedicated time of year where you're getting the most (or at least more) out of yourself in terms of speed gains? It just seems to me if you enter the year with 51.5 400m speed and exit your speed focused training block sitting at 50.5 that'll make a difference once you start adding in your more specific 800m work rather than hoping to eek out that same improvement (less efficiently and likely less effectively) over the course of the whole year via smaller, not as well absorbed doses of speed work. I don't have evidence other than anecdotal experience but when I'm in my normal mileage load of high 40s to mid 50s, I just feel like I'm not getting the most out of my speed sessions. thats why I made this thread, because its seems logical to me that you should integrate a time in your year long training season to focus on sprint speed as your main priority and I'm hoping to have someone either explain how that doesn't make sense to do, or offer their own experiences with training that way....aka whats the mileage limit you've found for yourself that you have still experienced measurable improvements (post puberty) in speed?
This is actually a really good thread. I need to get my thoughts together on this and get back to it tomorrow.