For those of you doing double threshold at the high school level, or for athletes that are relatively new to the sport, how have you gone about implementing it? What has the build up and introduction looked like? Any tips?
For those of you doing double threshold at the high school level, or for athletes that are relatively new to the sport, how have you gone about implementing it? What has the build up and introduction looked like? Any tips?
Double threshold is just another training option. Having HS do them is too much to much to ask.
For those of you doing double threshold at the high school level, or for athletes that are relatively new to the sport, how have you gone about implementing it? What has the build up and introduction looked like? Any tips?
I wouldn't do that with HS or beginners. To do it correctly you cannot run each session too fast and the only way to really know is by lactate meters. I don't see a point for this group of runners.
Beginners and young runners don't need complexity. The improvement curve is steep with simple training concepts.
Also teaching "threshold" running to anyone younger than HS is challenging. It's a sweet spot between easy running and hard running, which can be a tough for them. They need a watch. They need to understand and be able to execute consistent pacing. Plus it takes a fair amount of individual attention for determining the right pace and gathering/giving feedback for each runner. I could probably do that for a small number of young runners but not for a full team.
I’ve got my 8 year old son Dax doing double T a couple days a week. He’s always complaining about how he’s “sore”—that word has become so grating to my ears, you have no idea—but I remind him that being “sore” is a small price for glory.
For those of you doing double threshold at the high school level, or for athletes that are relatively new to the sport, how have you gone about implementing it? What has the build up and introduction looked like? Any tips?
I've adopted the Norwegian style training to high school athletes. My major takeaway is that in base training, tempo runs (especially at threshold) are really taxing and have relatively low volume limit. However, when you structure threshold work as short reps with even shorter rest, kids generally can handle higher volume and more frequent sessions.
Prior years, I had kids maxing out with a threshold run per week, at max 4 miles. Basically every kid felt like this was near max effort and felt it the next day.
MOre recently I switched to threshold k's with short rest. The top athlete got up to 2 sessions of 10xk@threshold in a week during base training. So instead of 4 miles at threshold in a week (which was basically max effort), he got about 12 (and almost always felt the workout was too easy). Week after week the increased volume at threshold has really helped.
Obviously doing double threshold with high schoolers isn't practical. But I think the general lessons from threshold training apply, and can be beneficial. Essentially micro dosing threshold allows the runner to do more threshold, and do it more frequently.
For those of you doing double threshold at the high school level, or for athletes that are relatively new to the sport, how have you gone about implementing it? What has the build up and introduction looked like? Any tips?
I've adopted the Norwegian style training to high school athletes. My major takeaway is that in base training, tempo runs (especially at threshold) are really taxing and have relatively low volume limit. However, when you structure threshold work as short reps with even shorter rest, kids generally can handle higher volume and more frequent sessions.
Prior years, I had kids maxing out with a threshold run per week, at max 4 miles. Basically every kid felt like this was near max effort and felt it the next day.
MOre recently I switched to threshold k's with short rest. The top athlete got up to 2 sessions of 10xk@threshold in a week during base training. So instead of 4 miles at threshold in a week (which was basically max effort), he got about 12 (and almost always felt the workout was too easy). Week after week the increased volume at threshold has really helped.
Obviously doing double threshold with high schoolers isn't practical. But I think the general lessons from threshold training apply, and can be beneficial. Essentially micro dosing threshold allows the runner to do more threshold, and do it more frequently.
I've adopted the Norwegian style training to high school athletes. My major takeaway is that in base training, tempo runs (especially at threshold) are really taxing and have relatively low volume limit. However, when you structure threshold work as short reps with even shorter rest, kids generally can handle higher volume and more frequent sessions.
Prior years, I had kids maxing out with a threshold run per week, at max 4 miles. Basically every kid felt like this was near max effort and felt it the next day.
MOre recently I switched to threshold k's with short rest. The top athlete got up to 2 sessions of 10xk@threshold in a week during base training. So instead of 4 miles at threshold in a week (which was basically max effort), he got about 12 (and almost always felt the workout was too easy). Week after week the increased volume at threshold has really helped.
Obviously doing double threshold with high schoolers isn't practical. But I think the general lessons from threshold training apply, and can be beneficial. Essentially micro dosing threshold allows the runner to do more threshold, and do it more frequently.
Have any of your athletes improved from this?
The top athlete (who did the most threshold work) went from being a 4:40 low guy to a mid 4:20's guy.
No I don't believe in that nonsense. Don't overcomplicate things for the kids. let them have fun running. For example, I am currently training my ex-wife's 11 year old son Jaxzen. I don't want to burn him out on too much fast stuff, so he runs 80 mpw in zone 2. I follow on my ebike asking him who's going to carry the boats and telling him to be tough. So far his times ****ing suck but he's having fun. Maybe he doesn't have any potential but we'll keep grinding. I make him deadlift twice a week. Trust the process.
I gave a couple of advanced HS athletes a few double threshold workouts during their offseason training. These are talented, driven athletes that wanted to be training at a high level. However, before I felt comfortable assigning these workouts, I made sure they had the following under their belt:
1. The ability to comfortably double multiple times per week. Easy day or workout day didn't matter, but I needed them to be comfortable running twice per day before having them do two workouts per day.
2. Have a solid base of functional muscular strength from resistance training (squats, deadlifts, etc) and durable mechanics (drills, steep 8 sec hill sprints, flying 30's).
3. The ability to complete a substantial single-session tempo/threshold session like 3 x 10 minutes at the proper intensity.
With those in place, we made sure to do the following:
1. We don't have a lactate meter, but talked extensively about how low the intensity should feel relative to other types of workouts.
2. Limited the total amount of time of reps to ~45 minutes split between the two sessions. If you look at the Ingebrigtsen training, they are usually doing ~60 minutes worth of reps split between two sessions, so doing 3/4th of that seemed about right.
3. Carefully monitored their recovery (how they felt, resting HR first thing in the morning, etc) to make sure they hadn't overdone it.
Both kids had excellent XC seasons, finishing in the top 5 of their competitive state meet. At their recent state meet for track, they both doubled and brought home two 1sts, a 2nd and a 5th while combining to drastically reset the school record books in the 800, 1600 and 3200.
TL:DR - A couple of talented, driven kids used double thresholds carefully in the offseason, and were very successful.
No I don't believe in that nonsense. Don't overcomplicate things for the kids. let them have fun running. For example, I am currently training my ex-wife's 11 year old son Jaxzen. I don't want to burn him out on too much fast stuff, so he runs 80 mpw in zone 2. I follow on my ebike asking him who's going to carry the boats and telling him to be tough. So far his times ****ing suck but he's having fun. Maybe he doesn't have any potential but we'll keep grinding. I make him deadlift twice a week. Trust the process.
Although not double threshold training - we had a group of committed boys this winter that did something similar to what Kid from Somewhere outlined. We did 1200s at threshold 2-3 times a month over the winter and had fantastic results. They would do 6-8x1200 on 25% rest, would finish feeling challenged but not exhausted and saw incredible progression in the 800, and pretty good in the 1600 as well.
Same 4 boys went from 2:19*, 2:06, 2:03, 2:05 one year to 2:00, 2:00, 1:59, 1:57.
*injury laden year - but this really was his 800 PR
It can absolutely work, and doesn't require any doubling. It's not magic either. The real benefit is that these boys showed up for 2 solid workouts a week, did max speed another day, and a long run on the weekend. Simple. But simple ain't easy.
I gave a couple of advanced HS athletes a few double threshold workouts during their offseason training. These are talented, driven athletes that wanted to be training at a high level. However, before I felt comfortable assigning these workouts, I made sure they had the following under their belt:
1. The ability to comfortably double multiple times per week. Easy day or workout day didn't matter, but I needed them to be comfortable running twice per day before having them do two workouts per day.
2. Have a solid base of functional muscular strength from resistance training (squats, deadlifts, etc) and durable mechanics (drills, steep 8 sec hill sprints, flying 30's).
3. The ability to complete a substantial single-session tempo/threshold session like 3 x 10 minutes at the proper intensity.
With those in place, we made sure to do the following:
1. We don't have a lactate meter, but talked extensively about how low the intensity should feel relative to other types of workouts.
2. Limited the total amount of time of reps to ~45 minutes split between the two sessions. If you look at the Ingebrigtsen training, they are usually doing ~60 minutes worth of reps split between two sessions, so doing 3/4th of that seemed about right.
3. Carefully monitored their recovery (how they felt, resting HR first thing in the morning, etc) to make sure they hadn't overdone it.
Both kids had excellent XC seasons, finishing in the top 5 of their competitive state meet. At their recent state meet for track, they both doubled and brought home two 1sts, a 2nd and a 5th while combining to drastically reset the school record books in the 800, 1600 and 3200.
TL:DR - A couple of talented, driven kids used double thresholds carefully in the offseason, and were very successful.
I've used limited double hard workout per day sessions, however I wouldn't say that they were true threshold sessions. I only used them with athletes that met the criteria cited by the poster above. It's funny how close his and my criteria were for assigning the sessions.
Instead of the double threshold, we did more like a double CV session a few times last track season (2023). A fairly common workout for us last season was 6-7 x 3 min at CV OR 5 x 3 min @ CV with some faster stuff tacked on at the end. Instead of making each session longer or harder, I had the kids do 5 x 3 min in the morning and 5 x 3 min in the afternoon, for a total of 10 x 3 min. As stated above, this was for my most advanced kids. I feel like they got a great training stimulus and were no more tired the next day than if they'd just done one of the singles sessions listed above. One of the guys went on to be state champ in the 800 and the other won double league championships (16/32), and was able to close in a 58 to win the 1600 (30/28).
Unlike a lot of other coaches, I try to encourage my athletes to double early in their careers and on relatively low mileage. I'm a big believer in the concept of small training stimuli creating a boost in anabolic hormone levels that last for significant time after an easy stimulus. So, we don't necessarily double to get extra volume in, rather we double in order to get a recovery type stimulus. In the summers, we meet 3 days a week in the mornings. I encourage almost all of my kids to go out and try to jog 15-30 minutes in the afternoons on those days.
College coach here. I have recruited kids who do double T. I wouldn’t recommend it. Get HS kids up to 10k in volume and that leaves them room to grow in college. 10xK or 6xMile is plenty for a HS kid
For those of you doing double threshold at the high school level, or for athletes that are relatively new to the sport, how have you gone about implementing it? What has the build up and introduction looked like? Any tips?
I've adopted the Norwegian style training to high school athletes. My major takeaway is that in base training, tempo runs (especially at threshold) are really taxing and have relatively low volume limit. However, when you structure threshold work as short reps with even shorter rest, kids generally can handle higher volume and more frequent sessions.
Prior years, I had kids maxing out with a threshold run per week, at max 4 miles. Basically every kid felt like this was near max effort and felt it the next day.
MOre recently I switched to threshold k's with short rest. The top athlete got up to 2 sessions of 10xk@threshold in a week during base training. So instead of 4 miles at threshold in a week (which was basically max effort), he got about 12 (and almost always felt the workout was too easy). Week after week the increased volume at threshold has really helped.
Obviously doing double threshold with high schoolers isn't practical. But I think the general lessons from threshold training apply, and can be beneficial. Essentially micro dosing threshold allows the runner to do more threshold, and do it more frequently.
Question for Kid from somewhere and Lap3.
Did you two repeat the same workout every week, twice a week?
Did you do any fast stuff during this time? One of you mentioned having one max speed day. I’m surprised that you had guys running fast in the 8/mile after doing threshold all fall and only one max speed day.
For those of you doing double threshold at the high school level, or for athletes that are relatively new to the sport, how have you gone about implementing it? What has the build up and introduction looked like? Any tips?
Doing double workouts is related to high workload that no HS student has. It doesn't make sense. So are they going to do 15 min threshold in AM and 10 min in PM?