5k to HM pace differential - how would this influence training

Nobody have any insights? I sort of feel that the above has to mean something and should influence training in some way, but I'm not exactly sure how.

My guess was maybe the response would be "work on your 5k" - but equally I've tried a few blocks with that focus over the last few years, and not been able to improve it much; maybe I'm missing something? Should I focus my training elsewhere?

Mpw is always in the region of 45-60; year round I probably average 50

I'm not sure. I just know that the small pace differential suggests you may have a very efficient running economy, where you are able to maintain a relatively fast pace even as the distance increases. This could indicate your body is well-adapted to sustain a high percentage of your VO2 max over longer distances.

You need to provide more info. What workouts have you done to improve at 5K? And is it possible that you are limited by how inexperience at 5K racing, where you just have to ride the pain train from a long way out?

Have you run a marathon? Maybe you are an aerobic beast, but not much of a speed demon.

Similar boat here in that typically 28s/mile will cover 5km-Marathon.

My personal experience was that for long tempos I used to benefit from easing back slightly on the effort level - e.g. for a base 10m @ Marathon effort I used to aim for an effort maybe 10s/mile slower than current MP. The reason for it being that otherwise I'm trying to run 10m solo in training at almost my Half Marathon pace (Mara = HM + 8s/mile for me).

A lot of people with tight conversions reputedly do well at the long cruising efforts but I found that a long tempo used to just tear me down unless I dropped the effort right back (MP + 30s ish), whereas long reps with long recoveries, or surges/fartlek in a long run, and no MP work got me in better shape for all distances. Though my conversion never changed, it was a more enjoyable way of training, I got faster, and I felt more comfortable on marathon race day than I ever had on previous methods of training.

Agreed. It looks like you have good endurance. I'm in a similar boat, with ~same gap between my 5k & half. My half is stronger. So, maybe think about doing some 5k-10k training (even down to 1 mile/3k). You know you can hold a solid percentage of 5k pace for the longer stuff but it'll be hard for you to run much faster at the half without picking up any more speed.

For those who mentioned marathons; it's actually slightly weaker again, 2:54 so about 6:40 per mile.

So I get a drop off both ends - a weaker 5k, stronger 10k/HM, and a weaker marathon

Not sure what that means really? If u were to graph my performances, they would tail off both sides, and probably something between 10k and HM (maybe 10 mile? Never ran one) would sit in the middle.

I actually find that long tempo M-pace type efforts beat me up a lot too. Interestingly I find marathon pace particularly hard in training.

To the poster who asked about training methods previously - I've often followed a JD system, so lots of Vo2 max I-pace sessions (I think his paces are too hard here), and also lots of T sessions mainly in the form of cruise intervals. I've also spent time on blocks of R-pace (circa mile pace) Rep work with long recoveries. I struggle with Daniels wanting 2 quality days a week + an easy long run; I just can't handle what might amount to an Interval session, cruise intervals, and a 90min+ long run all in the same week. I tend to manage it for 3 weeks then have to drop one of the workouts. Maybe that's because I'm 38 - need more recovery that he suggests (I think the book is written with younger runners in mind first).

My marathon blocks have been based again on a JD plans mixed with some Pfitz style progressive long runs. I definitely only do 2 quality days per week for the marathon though (Inc the long run, often with quality), no way am I recovering enough for 3

Have you taken a lot of cracks at the marathon tho & how has the weather been? Hard to get the perfect day for a marathon. 2:54 might not be too far off if conditions were less than ideal. & you might've been capable of something a little quicker if you went out at what you trained for in tough conditions.

But what you said makes sense. You do a lot of workouts around that 10k/half pace. Don't like the longer workouts @ M. Maybe don't do a ton of short end speed?

I've finished around that time twice, both in Spain, so good conditions but warmer than I'm used to in the UK obviously. Maybe on a cool day back home they would have been a couple of minutes quicker; seems likely.

Yes you are right I do a lot of workouts between 10k/HM. sometimes targeting T-pace per Daniels, some time just going for threshold-ish feel. A lot of those cruise intervals probably stray in to 10k effort territory tbh, particularly the 1 mile efforts.

To me (perhaps wrongly, but because I've come from a Daniels worldview) 5k training has always meant emphasising VO2 max work, so maybe stuff like 6x3min (2min jg) or similar, at Daniels I-pace or sometimes just at 5k effort I've always found these sorts of efforts hard to sustain week in week out - my gut feeling is that they are just too hard - certainly when I try to hit I-pace as a target.

So the vo2 max stuff is the main 'speed work' I'd do regularly; with the addition of blocks of R pace work every now and again - so 200s and 400s with time recovery like x3 that of the rep.

Is there value in other speed sessions that maybe I'm missing? Perhaps something that doesn't fit in the Daniels 'interval' or 'rep' boxes?

I think what you said with regard to I workouts is right. 6 x (3min/2jog) is one of the tougher race specific sessions you could do. I definitely wouldn't do that weekly in a 5k specific build. Mix it up with 400-1600 reps (5k-6k worth) (progress through a build so you're doing less rest when you repeat sessions closer to a race). I also find that 3-4 weeks in a row with a session like that is plenty. Throw in a week with just tempo/threshold (+ maybe something under distance).

The only thing maybe missing is some speed development. Do strides 2x/week after easy runs. 4-6 x 15-20s w./ 40-45s rest. Doesn't have to be a lot. You can also do something Rupp was doing in his marathon build like 7 x 300m. Do it on the roads at the end of an ez run. 6-7 x 1:00 hard w./ 1:00 ez. Then think about real sessions of volume 150s-300s w./ pretty full rest. Throw in workouts that you wouldn't normally assign yourself.

How would you go about structuring a build up for the 5k? When you say 3-4 weeks in a row for sessions like that, do you mean that would be a peaking block, or just take a down week then another 3-4 hard weeks again?

I've always struggled with putting together a decent program and knowing how much harder work to include.

Two harder days a week (counting anything tempo pace or faster as 'harder') plus a long run, has always seemed like the gold standard to me; but I can't ever maintain it for long. I suppose looking at it another way, I might be able to handle that amount of quality work off maybe 40mpw; but when I'm in the 50-60 bracket, only one hard day per week seems do-able (I suppose in fairness I'd probably quite often put some quality in the long run)

I wonder if my issue is that when I run 5k/I-pace etc, I'm treading a really fine line, as there is so little gap between my 5k and 10k, that it stands to reason there would be a smaller gap between my 5k-3k-mile paces (never raced anything shorter than a 5k so no idea of a mile time). But considering everything is so condensed for me at that end of the spectrum, it seems there would be a risk that my I-pace work could easily stray in to 3k/1mile pace territory on any given day - so maybe that's why I end up battered from those sessions. Ive often wondered if I backed off to 8k/10k pace intervals, would I get most of the benefit, without the 'risk' of slipping over the edge and frying myself

How old are you?

Did you run competitively in HS/xc?

People who start running later in life tend to do better at lactate threshold pace efforts like the HM and marathon compared to max VO2 events like the mile and 5k.

Google Joe Rubio's training plan for detailed plans

Out of the box input. Shorter distances require more power output from the muscles, longer distances require more endurance from the muscles. Aerobically you seem fine, but muscular wise seems to be the problem. Muscle endurance could be helped with high rep(50-100 reps) per exercise, power output could be accomplished with very low rep explosive reps like plyos or Olympic type lifts like cleans, or do a set of an exercise and immediately follow it with sprints ie squats with an average weight for about 10 reps and then sprint 100 meters

I didn't run until I was 27 (38 now). Played football and tennis up to when I was about 16/17 but that was about it. Those ~10yrs in between I sadly did pretty much zero exercise

If you were better at the HM/M distances, that would be one thing but…5K and 10K are not that far apart physiologically.

Leave aside your PRs at the moment, just considering what you say about your response to training, workout feel etc..plus your age….I would skew training more towards the easy end and use races to sharpen up. Limit the amount of hard workouts, pushing your threshold up from below.

Yeah repeat the cycle with a week in between. For 2 workouts/week, something like:

1) 6-7 x 800 @ 5k w./ 90s-2:00 rest; tempo/threshold

2) 5-6 x 1k @ 5k w./ 2:00-2:30 rest; under-distance

3) 4-5 x 1200 @ 5k w./ 2:30-3:00 rest; tempo/threshold

4) tempo/threshold; under-distance (even 1 T workout here is fine, maybe the under-distance is just strides- 2 x 6x20s or 6-7 x 300m/1:00 at the end of an easy run)

5) 6-7 x 800 @ 5k w./ 60s rest; tempo/threshold

6) 5-6 x 1k @ 5k w./ 90s rest; under-distance

7) 3 x 1600 @ 5k w./ 2:30-3:00 rest; tempo/threshold

8) 6 x 400 @ 5k + 800 harder; race

Not saying to do this 1:1 just an idea for an 8 week progression/sample. Could swap in shorter reps (400-600s) for the 5k sessions. Lots of variety for the T sessions. Think the under-distance workouts could be good for you -- basically sessions you wouldn't normally do: 2 x (6 x 200m w./ super slow 200m walk/jogs in between, 400 between sets), volume 300s, 400s @ mile/3k, etc. Focus on running faster than 5k pace with good turnover/form. It should help make 5k pace feel easier. Overall goal is to get in the 5k workouts early in the build @ goal 5k pace with the rest you need so you can hold 5k pace. With that rest, maybe you can hold something closer to 5:30 pace. When you repeat the sequence you try to hold the same pace on less rest. You know you're ready to roll when you can do that.

How long are you spending in each phase of the Daniels plan? How much volume are you running in these workouts? I started with daniels and evolved my coaching/training from there so I kinda see where your at. I also jump right to speed because most high school kids do a lot of speed in their early years that people that start late in life don’t do. So you can do things like do one 4-6mon cycle of daniels miler plan. Then take your week off and go to the 5k/10k plan. Im a year older than you and i have moved to more a multitier approach where when i hit the specific or quality phase via daniels i alternate each week where one week I do a 5k specific workout and the other a miler workout. For example I may do 4x1600 at 5k pace one week and 8-12x400 at mile pace the next.