would assume that historically it was the big names like Wetmore, D Smith, M Smith, Lanana, etc. Easier to take shots with upside kids when u have established credibility as a coach. Newer guys in role probably recruit solely on junior year times. Is this correct? any notable outliers?
would assume that historically it was the big names like Wetmore, D Smith, M Smith, Lanana, etc. Easier to take shots with upside kids when u have established credibility as a coach. Newer guys in role probably recruit solely on junior year times. Is this correct? any notable outliers?
First thing to look at progression/regression...milesplit has those charts available and they tell a real story of whats happeningm one tool but one that is very valuable.
exactly - the numbers never lie and always tell a story - that said, in my state there’s a top kid who looks like he’s been running since age of 7-8 competing in national events etc. Then there’s the kid who only first ran x country junior year in neighboring town. Second kid is behind the first from timing, maybe 20-30 seconds 5k - but wouldn’t second kid be the no brainer to prioritize in recruiting?
would assume that historically it was the big names like Wetmore, D Smith, M Smith, Lanana, etc. Easier to take shots with upside kids when u have established credibility as a coach. Newer guys in role probably recruit solely on junior year times. Is this correct? any notable outliers?
I'd argue it's usually the opposite.
The most successful programs like OK State, NAU, Oregon, etc. don't usually have to look for potential; they can attract the best athletes in the country. Sure they can also get the 4:12 guy to walk-on that hasn't hit the national stage yet, but I wouldn't really think of that as them taking a shot on them.
You'll probably find more mid-majors willing to give a decent scholarship to the kid that can't yet make a huge splash because the coach thinks they're going to have a bright future.
When I coached at a smaller school without much history I had to overpay for a lot of kids that I thought had more potential than what other coaches saw. It worked pretty well for me, but as the team got better we could get those higher level recruits that more schools were after. I still liked searching for the diamonds in the rough, but realistically I would still choose the sub-5 girl over the 5:08 who looked promising.
Big programs just don't have the need to risk a scholarship on potential when there's an NCAA All-American that they can get from year one.
would assume that historically it was the big names like Wetmore, D Smith, M Smith, Lanana, etc. Easier to take shots with upside kids when u have established credibility as a coach. Newer guys in role probably recruit solely on junior year times. Is this correct? any notable outliers?
In major team sports, a 2nd round, or later, pick, be burned on a lottery type athlete, but if it involves scholarships, it’s not a good idea.
would assume that historically it was the big names like Wetmore, D Smith, M Smith, Lanana, etc. Easier to take shots with upside kids when u have established credibility as a coach.
Newer guys in role probably recruit solely on junior year times. Is this correct? any notable outliers?
Oregon just got 4 girls who have all run 2:07 or faster in the 800. Three of them have been Foot Locker finalists. The 4th has won the 800 at Brooks PR the past 3 years.
Why in the world would a top coach like Jerry Schumacher take a chance on runners that might have some upside potential, when they can get the top kids in the country?
i hear you - biggest upside probably for low mileage hs kids throwing down big times - but I’m sure that’s a real gray area for college coaches to figures out as kids / coaches may embellish for that exact reason. 17-18 year old HS kid doing 70+ mile summer weeks as rising juniors or seniors probably aren’t broadcasting that during recruitment. But i’m sure many elite hs programs do that if not more. College coach may not have tremendous upside with those kids
would assume that historically it was the big names like Wetmore, D Smith, M Smith, Lanana, etc. Easier to take shots with upside kids when u have established credibility as a coach. Newer guys in role probably recruit solely on junior year times. Is this correct? any notable outliers?
None. All the top programs go for only the top runners, even if there is some cause for concern.
The coached up improving kid happens mostly at lesser schools, or as walk on.
Just watch on the threads of 2024 and 2025 recruits to see the order they go in.
Much easier to tell your boss that you recruited top kid, but it didn't work out, than to say you took a lesser guy and he didn't improve.
IMO, they will take a chance on that type of runner once they've improved at their "lesser school" and put themselves in the transfer portal. So, not a big risk.
I take walk ons and others who I see have perfect form in highschool. I award scholarships to highschoolers who have perfect form.
As far as the walk ons are concerned, they get their opportunity just like everyone else when we have time trials at practice. Those are the try outs, not to make the team, but to potentially replace the top recruits of mine (some foreign) who have become lackadaisical or think their crap don't stink. Nobody on my team is more important than anyone else. If a runner wants my full respect (and full ride scholarship) then he will have proficient running form and keep his mouth shut.
I take walk ons and others who I see have perfect form in highschool. I award scholarships to highschoolers who have perfect form.
As far as the walk ons are concerned, they get their opportunity just like everyone else when we have time trials at practice. Those are the try outs, not to make the team, but to potentially replace the top recruits of mine (some foreign) who have become lackadaisical or think their crap don't stink. Nobody on my team is more important than anyone else. If a runner wants my full respect (and full ride scholarship) then he will have proficient running form and keep his mouth shut.
-the430miler
Owner, teXXXas tanning salons llc
Coach and ornithology professor
A university in San Antonio
This explains why you have NOBODY in the 5k and 10k.
Alberto Salazar used to specifically recruit athletes with bad form. This is because he knew they had the most potential once he fixed their form. This made him the greatest 5k/10k coach in history until he got banned otherwise I have no doubt he would still be coaching gold medalists to this day.
Whereas your long distance coaching tenure since UTSA gave you the boot has been abject failure.
I take walk ons and others who I see have perfect form in highschool. I award scholarships to highschoolers who have perfect form.
As far as the walk ons are concerned, they get their opportunity just like everyone else when we have time trials at practice. Those are the try outs, not to make the team, but to potentially replace the top recruits of mine (some foreign) who have become lackadaisical or think their crap don't stink. Nobody on my team is more important than anyone else. If a runner wants my full respect (and full ride scholarship) then he will have proficient running form and keep his mouth shut.
-the430miler
Owner, teXXXas tanning salons llc
Coach and ornithology professor
A university in San Antonio
This explains why you have NOBODY in the 5k and 10k.
Alberto Salazar used to specifically recruit athletes with bad form. This is because he knew they had the most potential once he fixed their form. This made him the greatest 5k/10k coach in history until he got banned otherwise I have no doubt he would still be coaching gold medalists to this day.
Whereas your long distance coaching tenure since UTSA gave you the boot has been abject failure.
Right. Salazar couldn’t even fix his own bad form.
I take walk ons and others who I see have perfect form in highschool. I award scholarships to highschoolers who have perfect form.
As far as the walk ons are concerned, they get their opportunity just like everyone else when we have time trials at practice. Those are the try outs, not to make the team, but to potentially replace the top recruits of mine (some foreign) who have become lackadaisical or think their crap don't stink. Nobody on my team is more important than anyone else. If a runner wants my full respect (and full ride scholarship) then he will have proficient running form and keep his mouth shut.
-the430miler
Owner, teXXXas tanning salons llc
Coach and ornithology professor
A university in San Antonio
Distance coaches who claim that "form" is the magic bullet are talking out of their poop holes. It's usually a ploy to make others think they are smart.
When you are at a smaller school with limited resources, your best shot is to go for the lottery picks.
Cam Levins, anyone? (The ultimate lottery pick ... but his "form" is fine, FWIW.)
I take walk ons and others who I see have perfect form in highschool. I award scholarships to highschoolers who have perfect form.
As far as the walk ons are concerned, they get their opportunity just like everyone else when we have time trials at practice. Those are the try outs, not to make the team, but to potentially replace the top recruits of mine (some foreign) who have become lackadaisical or think their crap don't stink. Nobody on my team is more important than anyone else. If a runner wants my full respect (and full ride scholarship) then he will have proficient running form and keep his mouth shut.
-the430miler
Owner, teXXXas tanning salons llc
Coach and ornithology professor
A university in San Antonio
Distance coaches who claim that "form" is the magic bullet are talking out of their poop holes. It's usually a ploy to make others think they are smart.
When you are at a smaller school with limited resources, your best shot is to go for the lottery picks.
Cam Levins, anyone? (The ultimate lottery pick ... but his "form" is fine, FWIW.)
Nobody is saying that recruiting is easy, especially based on limited resources and limited scholarship money. However, your sentiment about running form being negligible is far from reality.
Take 2 runners with great potential. 1 who is a heavy striker and bad arm motion. And the other who does neither if those things. In the long run and in championship races, the better form runner always wins. Look how much nico young has adjusted his relaxation level. Look how hocker is now keeping his elbow in and gliding his arms instead of big circles. He has changed for the better.
Form (mechanics) is about efficiency.
Form (mechanics) is about injury prevention.
Form (mechanics) is about getting from A to B faster and smoother, regardless of the distance.
Form is what makes us successful runners. Ya, I'll take the good form runner any day of the year.
100% of the HS juniors I recruited told me and expected to run faster their senior year. How would you know who has potential or not? 0% of the recruits I recruited said “Coach, I ran some great times my Soph and Junior year, that’s as good as it gets for me”