DDG #3: JK and Rojo share their favorite three 800 workouts

Great article and great workouts. Loved the little anecdote about the 1:50 guy limping to the end of the 4x4@ 800 pace — foundational experience every half miler’s been through.

Would recommend any up-and-coming 800 runners who enjoyed this piece go through the classic sub -1:50 800 training thread — lots of nuggets of wisdom there too.

if i could do it again.

800 training like these workouts is all i would want to do.

plus 5 miles in the morning at 520 to 620 min/mile, easy pace if needed to recover.

nothing but fun

These could get you some improvement but they could alter some things to maximize speed better and reduce risk of injury/burnout. In some ways their proposed workouts are more 800m/1500m oriented, and the fact that it's prefaced with "dear distance gurus" highlights that they don't have the best knowledge for the 800m the way Rinaldi and other coaches do.

I've done basically all of these workouts and workout 1 is definitely more for a miler. It's mostly at mile pace and the rest is short, when really 800m runners often need medium amounts of rest to do reps of 200m and longer, going down from mile pace to 800m pace and faster. And then the fast paced short stuff is at the end of this tough workout (more on this in a sec).

Workout 2 is more on track as it addresses the need for race pace work. However 4x400m at 800m race pace with 4-5' rest could be too hard for a lot of athletes to get the right stimulus from. Maybe if you're an 8/15 type and you run a 1:55 by going out in 57, you would have the aerobic strength to run 4x 57s and recover each time, but again that caters more towards milers who run the 800m, which could have been many of the athletes in your coaching experience at Cornell. A guy who runs 1:52 by splitting 53/59 would not be able to complete this, and even if he did so by running 56 4 times, that wouldn't give him the right stimulus of going out in a race. I would modify to something like this: 500m at true race pace, 30sec rest, 300m hard to the finish, 8-10' rest, then 250m faster than race pace, 30sec rest, 150m to the finish. Essentially a broken 800m then a broken 400m with FULL recovery in between. You DO NOT need two miles of 800m race pace work.

Workout #3 is solid as they are getting some work at threshold and/or a little faster (this is my understanding of "crest load" but please correct me if I'm wrong?) but would prefer to do this with shorter rest and dial back the effort a little more as Rinaldi's 4x mile threshold with 2' rest. Also, fast running is at the end of this when they are tired.

To truly maximize speed development, you need to do that work when the athlete is most fresh. This is why he picks it as its own workout as one of his 3, rather than tacking on progressive strides at the end of a hard workout. So a pure speed day could start with the short fast track work but then also include plyos, weights, etc after. You can't have a "plus some short speed at the end" mentality with 800m training. You have to make it the main thing some days.

I really, really like 16x200 at about mile pace. I typically would run this workout every 3 weeks in track - it’s great with 3200m of total volume, but it doesn’t trash you at all either. I could run it the Tuesday of a Saturday race week and he fully recovered. What I’d average for these reps would be a hair slower than my mile - maybe 0.2 - 0.3 seconds slower per 200. Then tack in 4x150 going from 800 to 400 effort to simulate a kick. Full rest in between of course - walk back.

I’d usually rest for between 1:15 and 1:30, standing. It worked for me across all pace ranges - when I ran a 4:35 1600 (let’s say 4:36.5-4:36.6 mile) I’d run it at 34.8, when I ran a 4:19 mile I’d average 32.5, 31.5 for a 4:11, and 30.1 for a 3:58. Combine it with a ton of tempo and a few longer 5000-10000 pace reps and you’ll be a very fit 5000 runner who can run a very good mile as well.

4x400 is a poor choice for one of your 3 workouts. It just isn’t something you want/can do on a regular basis.

The 3 workout limit means you either cheat by squishing things together (4x1 mile + flying 40s/ drills instead of an aerobic and a speed workout) or you have to leave out something. These hard speed endurance sessions while good can be replaced by races.

In place of 4 x 400 I'd go with:

500-400-300-200-100 with 4/3/2/1 minute recoveries

done at 800 goal pace on the 500 & 400 and that or better on the 300, 200 & 100

So a 2:00 goal 800 runner would target: 1:15, 1:00, 44-45, 28-29, 13-14.

The title says three favorite 800m workouts. Not necessarily the best ones. And no you shouldn’t do the same thing every week. We all should know and understand that. Personally in the specific phase I have moved to move a multi tier approach in the last couple years. So one week Ill do more a miler workout and finish with some 200s at 800 pace and the next week do a 800 pace workout and keep rotating for the 5 weeks or so. I pretty much have always done the 4x400 workout with 5min rest late season before the taper.

I think people would be more interested in some articles where we get some input from some current coaches on their beliefs and training.
As someone said in the thread of your last post, this whole thing where you're answering your own questions that no one is asking yourself and addressing yourself as a “distance guru?” Maybe do some more of those COVID videos where you guys did Q & A’s with some current coaches.
Heck, I enjoyed it when you guys would have on some of the old greats like Deena or Jim Ryun.
Your website, so do whatever. But just some feedback that this is just uninteresting and embarrassing.

If I recall they did an interview/podcast with Jim Ryun on his life/training already. Deena I feel like they did once as well. I don't remember when.

Sorry I've been taking care of my sick kid the last two days and not looking at the boards. I just read your post to John and he became irate and said, "Do you want to bet?"

Yes, most of our 800 guys were more 800/1500 than 400/800 but we took a 1:56 400/800 walkon and had him 1:48. and conference title (Will Weinladt). We took a 1:57 walkon (Mike Smayda) whom I let run a MARATHON one fall (2:47) - and got him down to 1:50 (2nd in conference). If you know how to coach, you coach them individually. We had so so so many guys improve 5-6 seconds in the 800 or more. Please tell me how many other collegiate teams even bother with those diamonds in the rough.

As for the rest of your email, yes workout #2 is very hard for anyone to finish. But why in the hell are you talking about a 53-59 guy? If you have ever coached a guy who runs like that, he'd be 100% worthless to have on a collegiate team unless there is a 4 x 800 or something.

Those type of splits are embarrassing and are on the coach for not teaching him to do it smarter.

But you can have them take the first one a little conservative or cut it short if they are over their head at #3.

The point of our column was not to do exactly what Rinaldi did - and give just 3 workotus you can do. In fact, we gave four workouts. We just gave you some of our favorite for each type of workout.

I only coached high schoolers, collegians and myself - all middle of the road athletes and not high volume. Here are my favorites. Also the 800m is traditionally divided into 4 x 200m segments but I found it more helpful to prepare with three segments 500m-150m-150m. The hardest part of the race is not the third 200m - actually 150m. It's misnomer since floating through 500m is typical and then the suffering begins. The third segment is 150m to get position and setup final 150m home.

1. Goal - tolerate discomfort:
3 x 2 x 250m at 1-2 sec faster than 800m pace with 1 minute rest.
Start first 250m at beginning of straightaway and end at middle of straight. 1 minute to cross to other side starting second 250m at middle of the straightaway. Full rest between sets.
Variation: 2 x 3 x 250m at 800m pace with 1 minute rest.

2. Goal - race modeling for last 150m:
500m at 800m pace. 1 min rest, move up 50m, then 150m hard. Full rest.
400m at 800m pace. 1 min rest, move up 50m, then 150m hard. Full rest.
300m at 800m pace. 1 min rest, move up 50m, then 150m hard. Full rest.
Variation: 4 x 300m at 800m pace. 1 min rest, then 150m hard. Full rest between sets.

3. Goal - speed
10 x flying 50m full speed.
Setup cones on straightaway at 0m-50m-100m. Rolling start into flying 50m. Ease out at 50m - no braking. Walk to end of 100m. Turn around with rolling start into next flying 50m in opposite direction. Ease out at 50m - no braking. Walk to end of 100m and repeat. Rest as needed.

Finish any 800m track workout with a 2 mile tempo run on grass or soft surface.