Seems like most people have a set up of longer in the morning at marathon pace and then something between HM and 10k in the afternoon for shorter intervals.
Something like 5xmile at MP, 60-90s rest for AM
12-20x400 at 10k-HM, 60-90s rest for PM
I know the goal is not to really strain. It's more so to just get the grinding work done for the day.
My question: are these paces I've read about the paces for groups training at altitude or is this the correct method at sea level? I assume Flagstaff adjusts their paces for this type of work, but do the Ingebritsens train at altitude like this too?
What paces do people use who have implemented this training?
There is no training paces which are correct. Train with lactate. 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold in morning is great. In afternoon, stay 0.3-0.5 below anerobic threshold. Too many people try to do this method without lactate meters especially at the college level. As someone who has gone from the american style cruise intervals and tempos to training with lactate, there is usually a large discrepency between what people think is the correct pace versus what really is.
There is no training paces which are correct. Train with lactate. 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold in morning is great. In afternoon, stay 0.3-0.5 below anerobic threshold. Too many people try to do this method without lactate meters especially at the college level. As someone who has gone from the american style cruise intervals and tempos to training with lactate, there is usually a large discrepency between what people think is the correct pace versus what really is.
Mike Smith goes by "breathing" and seems to be pretty successful with it.
There is no training paces which are correct. Train with lactate. 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold in morning is great. In afternoon, stay 0.3-0.5 below anerobic threshold. Too many people try to do this method without lactate meters especially at the college level. As someone who has gone from the american style cruise intervals and tempos to training with lactate, there is usually a large discrepency between what people think is the correct pace versus what really is.
Did you intentionally use these two different terms? 0.3-0.5 mmol below Aerobic threshold might not even be a light jog for most people. 0.3-0.5 mmol below anaerobic threshold is fine for the longer LT sessions that we see so much more these days in collegiate training or double threshold sessions.
There is no training paces which are correct. Train with lactate. 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold in morning is great. In afternoon, stay 0.3-0.5 below anerobic threshold. Too many people try to do this method without lactate meters especially at the college level. As someone who has gone from the american style cruise intervals and tempos to training with lactate, there is usually a large discrepency between what people think is the correct pace versus what really is.
Did you intentionally use these two different terms? 0.3-0.5 mmol below Aerobic threshold might not even be a light jog for most people. 0.3-0.5 mmol below anaerobic threshold is fine for the longer LT sessions that we see so much more these days in collegiate training or double threshold sessions.
You clearly haven't done any research into the topic.
Firstly, most people aren't doing double threshold, so there's no need to dumb it down to the rec-runner, for whom, simply running is a zone 3 effort.
Secondly, if you're accumulating lactate in a "light jog", then it's not a "light jog."
Thirdly, the poster you've responded to has cited those intensities because that's how the Ingebrigtsens do it. They stay below LT1/aerobic threshold in the morning, which is 2mmol (this tends to correspond with the pace one could hold for roughly 2-2.5 hours), and they stay below LT2/anaerobic threshold in the evening session, which is 4mmol.
There is no training paces which are correct. Train with lactate. 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold in morning is great. In afternoon, stay 0.3-0.5 below anerobic threshold. Too many people try to do this method without lactate meters especially at the college level. As someone who has gone from the american style cruise intervals and tempos to training with lactate, there is usually a large discrepency between what people think is the correct pace versus what really is.
So can you comment on how altitude teams use it differently than sea level teams? That's all I'm really trying to find out here since most of the anecdotes you hear about and the coaches I've spoken to are at altitude.
There is no training paces which are correct. Train with lactate. 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold in morning is great. In afternoon, stay 0.3-0.5 below anerobic threshold. Too many people try to do this method without lactate meters especially at the college level. As someone who has gone from the american style cruise intervals and tempos to training with lactate, there is usually a large discrepency between what people think is the correct pace versus what really is.
So can you comment on how altitude teams use it differently than sea level teams? That's all I'm really trying to find out here since most of the anecdotes you hear about and the coaches I've spoken to are at altitude.
Imagine not knowing about this and asking for advice on letsrun🤓💀.
So can you comment on how altitude teams use it differently than sea level teams? That's all I'm really trying to find out here since most of the anecdotes you hear about and the coaches I've spoken to are at altitude.
Imagine not knowing about this and asking for advice on letsrun🤓💀.
Elementary sport physiology
You know it's crazy, I don't have to imagine not knowing it! I actually don't! That's what letsrun is usually for, educating people about running. Congrats on knowing everything, I wish I did! Feel free to contribute to the conversation. I would really value your input.
--
Anyway, I'm finding that our guys respond well to what is currently our marathon pace in the AM for the longer stuff.
In the evening, I usually keep it pretty short and they've been able to handle 10k pace. Typically I have them start about 2-3 seconds above 10k pace (they get a range) and then hitting directly on 10k pace for the last half. I find the most difficult part is talking to the boys about fueling correctly. I've cut the second workout for some if they've had class all day or admittedly weren't feeling great. These college kids aren't perfect!
So, my guess is that the paces people have talked to me about work well at sea level as well. I guess, for me, it's been more about managing the volume they do. We've started around 7 miles between the two workouts and worked our way up to 9-10 for some.
I think the most important thing is staying on them about hitting the paces and not doing "extra credit" since everyone is hyper motivated by the mere utterance of "double threshold." Their confidence has been at an all time high this year but I've made sure to mention very frequently that this is no magic bullet, as much as they'd like it to be.
Did you intentionally use these two different terms? 0.3-0.5 mmol below Aerobic threshold might not even be a light jog for most people. 0.3-0.5 mmol below anaerobic threshold is fine for the longer LT sessions that we see so much more these days in collegiate training or double threshold sessions.
You clearly haven't done any research into the topic.
Firstly, most people aren't doing double threshold, so there's no need to dumb it down to the rec-runner, for whom, simply running is a zone 3 effort.
Secondly, if you're accumulating lactate in a "light jog", then it's not a "light jog."
Thirdly, the poster you've responded to has cited those intensities because that's how the Ingebrigtsens do it. They stay below LT1/aerobic threshold in the morning, which is 2mmol (this tends to correspond with the pace one could hold for roughly 2-2.5 hours), and they stay below LT2/anaerobic threshold in the evening session, which is 4mmol.
The bolded bit is incorrect. I’ve heard that they stay below 2.5 mmol in the AM, which is above LT1 but it is the pace that one could hold for roughly 2-2.5 hours. Baaken has a different recommendation. He lists a few different sessions but they are all below 3.0.
mariusbakken.com
The Norwegian model of lactate threshold training and lactate controlled approach to training. A look at some of the concepts, history, and keys to improvement. I wrote most of the articles found…
I think it was on one of the podcasts he mentioned that he often was in the 2.5 to 3.0 mmol range for both his AM and PM sessions but I can’t remember off the top of my head. I’ve also seen on Jakob’s Instagram pictures of lactate meters in the 2.6 or so range.
Imagine not knowing about this and asking for advice on letsrun🤓💀.
Elementary sport physiology
You know it's crazy, I don't have to imagine not knowing it! I actually don't! That's what letsrun is usually for, educating people about running. Congrats on knowing everything, I wish I did! Feel free to contribute to the conversation. I would really value your input.
--
Anyway, I'm finding that our guys respond well to what is currently our marathon pace in the AM for the longer stuff.
In the evening, I usually keep it pretty short and they've been able to handle 10k pace. Typically I have them start about 2-3 seconds above 10k pace (they get a range) and then hitting directly on 10k pace for the last half. I find the most difficult part is talking to the boys about fueling correctly. I've cut the second workout for some if they've had class all day or admittedly weren't feeling great. These college kids aren't perfect!
So, my guess is that the paces people have talked to me about work well at sea level as well. I guess, for me, it's been more about managing the volume they do. We've started around 7 miles between the two workouts and worked our way up to 9-10 for some.
I think the most important thing is staying on them about hitting the paces and not doing "extra credit" since everyone is hyper motivated by the mere utterance of "double threshold." Their confidence has been at an all time high this year but I've made sure to mention very frequently that this is no magic bullet, as much as they'd like it to be.
That’s crazy, but I ain't reading all that lol. Best of luck looking for information on letsrun out of all places!
You clearly haven't done any research into the topic.
Firstly, most people aren't doing double threshold, so there's no need to dumb it down to the rec-runner, for whom, simply running is a zone 3 effort.
Secondly, if you're accumulating lactate in a "light jog", then it's not a "light jog."
Thirdly, the poster you've responded to has cited those intensities because that's how the Ingebrigtsens do it. They stay below LT1/aerobic threshold in the morning, which is 2mmol (this tends to correspond with the pace one could hold for roughly 2-2.5 hours), and they stay below LT2/anaerobic threshold in the evening session, which is 4mmol.
The bolded bit is incorrect. I’ve heard that they stay below 2.5 mmol in the AM, which is above LT1 but it is the pace that one could hold for roughly 2-2.5 hours. Baaken has a different recommendation. He lists a few different sessions but they are all below 3.0.
I think it was on one of the podcasts he mentioned that he often was in the 2.5 to 3.0 mmol range for both his AM and PM sessions but I can’t remember off the top of my head. I’ve also seen on Jakob’s Instagram pictures of lactate meters in the 2.6 or so range.
Do either of you have any input about doing this at altitude? Just trying to canvas opinions of other coaches.
There isnt one correct pace in relation to your racing times. if you have been doing this training for a long time, you will be able to run fast and still be below the lactate level. If you are new to this type of training, you will have to run slower than what you would expect.
do this on tuesdays/thursdays Morning -> 5-6 x 6 minutes at 2 mmol
afternoon -> 8-10 x 3 minutes or 20-25 x 60 sec at 3 mmol
Saturday: morning -> hills 2 set of 10 x 200 m; relatively easy afternoon.
so you always have 1 or 2 easy days between the ”hard” days
There is no training paces which are correct. Train with lactate. 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold in morning is great. In afternoon, stay 0.3-0.5 below anerobic threshold. Too many people try to do this method without lactate meters especially at the college level. As someone who has gone from the american style cruise intervals and tempos to training with lactate, there is usually a large discrepency between what people think is the correct pace versus what really is.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Amazing how training stuff is like a game of telephone. Eventually nonsense gets regurgitated out.
Saying 0.3-0.5 mmol below aerobic threshold is nonsense. Aerobic threshold is the point where lactate first starts to rise. The reason why scientists like to see that’s 2 mmol is because untrained people have very high lactate at rest. This is also why the anaerobic threshold is mistakenly set to 4 mmol. The reality is you HAVE to do a lactate step test.
