Is Canova Right About EPO?

If it doesn't work, why are people still risking their careers to take it? Makes no sense to argue it doesn't work

If it does work, then Canova looks like less of a scary genius.

From my understanding, it’s synthetic blood doping. Does blood doping not work either?

He claims, without evidence, that one can obtain the perfect compromise between high hct and high blood viscosity by combining (long time) altitude with perfect training and great talent.

He does concede that EPO can be advantageous in all other cases (not enough altitude, not good enough training, not good enough talent) - which is true for most athletes, imho.

Right, it's not that he said it doesn't work, it's that it does not work on a talented and properly trained (e.g. altitude) runner. No idea if he's right or not...

+1

Here is a lengthier discussion:

For example there he wrote:

So, while I'm sure EPO can help the most part of athletes to increase their PB, I continue to think that can't enhance the performances for the very small category of athletes with the following requirements :
1) Born, living and training in altitude
2) Having top talent
3) Using an advanced smart and hard training
4) With full focus in athletic
5) With max level of self confidence in their "natural" possibility

But these are the qualities for being Champions, and this is the reason because I strongly believe ALL the athletes in this category are clean.

I forgot points 4 and 5, sorry.

He used this excuse as a guise to protect his revenue stream. Obviously he didn't want the Kenyans popped b3cause he takes money from them based on how they perform (better performances equates to mote miney). He knows epo helps any athlete taking it but pretends this is not the case. Then when exposed (Kenyans getting busted) he changed his story multiple times. Started by saying Kenyans do not dope, then when some got busted he said the top Kenyans don't dope and it doesn't benefit them. Then when that unraveled he disappeared but kept getting the money and coaching. Bow ask yourself--why is there a doping problem? Complicit agents and coaches such as Renato Canova are doping enablers and apologists because they benefit financially from dopers.

I asked this question ie 'does EPO change the blood levels/counts of highly trained athletes born/trained at altitude' to a top haematology consultant. Of course it will he answered.

Even to the layman is is obvious that none of these athletes would continue to use the drug if they could see no improvement

All points just complete garbage. We might have believed it 10/20 years ago

In his book, and in his talks (videos on YouTube), Tyler Hamilton describes the Tour de France as one of the most difficult athletic achievements. It’s multiple days/weeks of big miles on a bike, and it eventually depletes the blood count. This is why a large fraction of the peloton (at least in his era) was using EPO and/or blood doping, to restore their hematocrit.

Well, think about it. A marathoner runs multiple months on end! Does this answer the question?

Meant to say, a professional marathoner runs multiple months on end *of relatively hard training. They can train even harder with the use of PEDs.

It doesn't work the same way the shoes don't work.

If it didn't work people wouldn't risk taking it.

If the shoes didn't work people wouldn't spend $250 + per pair to wear them.

Both work. Both are cheating.

Great, thanks. Was looking for this.

During the Tour de France 2007, 7 riders were randomly tested on 3 different occasions; the day before the prologue, and 12 and 19 days after the prologue. Blood was drawn into 3 mL EDTA covered tubes and kept at 4 degrees Celsius. They were analyzed within 24 hours on a Sysmex R-500.

Results: [Hb] and Hct were significantly lower on day 12 (p = 0.005) and day 19 (p < 0.001) compared to baseline. All 7 riders had lower [Hb] and Hct on day 19 compared to baseline, while this was the case in 6 out of 7 riders already on day 12. The [Hb] and Hct were 11.5% and 12.1% lower on day 19 compared to baseline.

Conclusion: We observed significant decreases in [Hb] and Hct in 7 riders during Tour de France 2007.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

[Changes in blood profiles during Tour de France 2007] - PubMed

We observed significant decreases in [Hb] and Hct in 7 riders during Tour de France 2007. Whether or not this is due to decrease in hemoglobin mass or hemodilution, or the latter solely, increases in [Hb] and Hct during prolo...

Link:pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18513473/

Canova is right. There is no superhuman metabolism. It's a fantasy.

Maybe it is possible that someone has the maxed out benefits higher rbc and the like without EPO. We all like to think is possible. But it is just as likely that you need EPO to get that last 10% that is possible.

For the blatant examples of drugs letting you do things that can't be done naturally, Look at body builders and see how much more mass is there when you dope. Heck look at how much more mass modern guys have than known dopers like Arnold.

His premise is correct but ultimately guesswork. We still don't fully understand how EPO works and modern research shows that there is indeed limitations outside of oxygen transport and that muscular and nervous system fatigue are the limit and not oxygen delivery. Now, this doesn't mean that EPO doesn't work, it does but its effect on highly trained fully altitude acclimitised athletes will be more limited than say a sea level recreational athlete. Now Renato can argue that these athletes already have reached the point where Vasculogenesis and Angiogenesis has been maxed out by years of altitude adaption and maxed out Oxygen transport to the point where extra oxygen is not actually absorbed and that the limit which we now know is muscular endurance is defining characteristic at that point.

This process is now widely accepted in scientific circles as a fact so Renato is very much correct on the underlying process. What we don't know is if its actually true in these current athletes cases although the science leads to the belief that the benefits on altitude adapted high level elite athletes returns being at least greatly diminished although no studies have actually been done on elite athletes and much of the effects of epo on performance are still unknown.

So many of the people who give Renato abuse for his take are pretty clueless, but he could also end up being wrong, no one knows for certain yet. His premise is very much in line with the science though.

Lol lol

On one hand, you say science doesn’t yet know, but somehow, the ‘non-credentialed scientist’ coach does.

Not

There have been too many top athletes who have had sudden jumps in improvements who were caught on EPO or Athlete Biological Passport anomaly. Not just Kenyans. But, yes many Kenyans.

Renato has told me that he did not say EPO doesn't work on Kenyans, but I have that in an interview with him. He talked about the blood being too viscose. I dunno.

One of the forms of talent is the elasticity of the cardio vascular system. Athletes with more elastic veins and arterys with a proper, hard training in high altitude, can increase the total volume of blood in their body till 25%, that means about one and half liter more.

For that reason, athletes able to achieve top results in clean way, during the process to improve their shape, continue to low their Hct and thei Hb, while the shape is growing.

Somebody can ask this is possible. What is Hct ? It's the multiplication of the number of RBC (red cells) per their volume (MCV, Mean Corpuscolar Volume).

This means every human can have the same Hct, product of two very different situations : great number of RBC with MCV of medium value, or less number of RBC with bigger MCV.

There is a difference between the blood of athletes normally living and training at sea level, and athletes normally living and training in high altitude.

Athletes coming from sea level, when go in altitude have more problems to catch oxygen from the air because the hypossia, and for that reason have a REACTION, that normally (attention, NOT ALWAYS, but in 80% of the cases) consists to increase the production of new erythrocytes (so they increase the number of RBC)

Instead, athletes normally living and training in high altirude don't have any reaction (because for them it's a normal status) but ADAPTATION, that consists in the increase of the MCV, without having a very high number of RBC.

Now, we need to understand how the Hct works.

Suppose to have a bottle of 1 liter, that you fill with half liter of water and with 500 gr of sugar. Go to shake the liquid, and after go to analyze the mixture : you find 50% of water, and 50% of sugar.

Now, suppose to have a bottle of 1.2 liters, that you fill with 650 cl of water and with 550 gr of sugar. After shaking the liquid, if you analyze the mixture you find about 55% of water, and only 45% of sugar. BUT NOW YOU HAVE MORE SUGAR, with a lower percentage.

In our case, sugar is the Haemoglobin : with athletes having the organical talent for increasing the total blood volume of 25%, they have more Hb, but the percentage is lower. However, they are able to transport more oxygen.

Not only, but, because the plasmatic part in every RBC is higher, the blood has less viscosity, and the peripheral resistances are reduced.

The fact many athletes continue to use EPO doesn't mean this work, means that the widespread idea was that it works, and responsible for that "endorsement" were the scientists of antidoping too, speaking of incredible improvement in the performances possible with EPO, something that every coach used to train the athletes in clean way, well know that is a total idiocy, and only people without any pratic experience (scientists belong to this category) can say something so stupid and very far from the reality.