Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I plan on implementing double threshold twice a week with one hill/strength session during the winter on 90km a week. Hill/strength session will literally just be for neuromuscular connection, something like 8x 30s hill and then strength work.

To supplement the lack of mileage, I will do lots of cross training, biking, elliptical, cross country skiing, etc..

How do you plan to build up to that? Are you going to do a few weeks of just 1 double threshold, 2 single thresholds, or something else?

slowly build mileage with easy running and fartleks

then start 1 day a week of 2 twenty minute tempoes and eventually transfer that to 2 thresholds

then i'll do the same for a second day of the week

If you want to know how to build, go back to a few years ago when he was running 8k per day. With gradual progression he’s now over 70mpw on the schedule you mention.

The basis of the so-called Norwegian method is high mileage. The threshold workouts are run at a carefully-controlled effort so that you can do a lot of it.
Tinman's CV-based system is arguably a low-mileage alternative.

Don’t think of it in miles per week, think of it as recovery time between sessions.

If the Ingebrigtsens are doing 3Q + a LR, maybe you are only doing 1-2Q + LR every other week.

same with double thresholds. Rather than doing two workouts in one day, you would do two workouts on back to back days.

You can apply this same approach to individual workouts. If they are doing 8 x 4:30 hard with 90 seconds recovery, then you could do 8 x 2:15 hard with 3:45 recovery.

But stop worrying about weekly mileage. It’s a pretty meaningless metric of fitness. Pace of workout efforts, length of workout efforts, total volume of workout efforts and recovery time are all 1000x more telling about how prepared you are to run fast.

I did the first 7-8 weeks or so of my summer training using the daniels running formula Phase 1 and some of Phase 2, would switching to the tinman model be advisable? What are the similarities/differences between the two? thanks!

I've basically been doing the Norwegian model on singles.

It's not really that hard to "copy" in the sense the hobby jogging Ingebrigtsten puts all his training on Strava.

It's very basic , usually:

Easy

Sub threshold

Easy

Sub threshold

Easy

Sub threshold

Long run

Repeat .

I hired a lactate meter and turns out my paces are very similar to the equivalents he is running. That's a sample of two but for me who doesn't have unlimited money to spend on the test strips, it's good enough.

I had stagnated around 18:5x for quite a while for a 5k (that's all I really run) but have now made quite a big jump recently to 17:27.

Because there is very little vo2 max stuff I pretty much am ready to go for the next session no problem. Also feel way less tired running this way.

In terms of overall training load (coming from a cycling background) it also creates more CTL for about the same amount of time on feet (around 6 hours 45 for me) compared to training more traditionally, which I had tried (I'd read Daniels, faster 5k and a couple of others).

I would advice to switching to the Dancan method by JS.Seems to be the way to go.

So do u mean you adjust the pace? I just can't believe you would run just at LT pace. Doesn't make sense. U would need to run at different places for different adaptations.

I am curious though, that's a huge jump in improvement after stagnation.

One thing I always been curious about also is that is all ctl or training load equal. Are you from cycling background? They use ctl all the time.

My reply was to you.

Yes I used to cycle. I experimented training in a lot of different ways. What I found out (I used to time trial) is that whatever CTL I got to that I could maximally sustain, my power was the same over 10 or 25 miles (key distances for time Trialists). To pluck an arbitratory number at random , say my 20 min power was 340w at a CTL of 60, it didn't really matter HOW I got there. In the sense I could do that power on a range of 7 or 12 hours a week training. The 7 hours may have been sub threshold sweetspot every other day, or the 12 hours may have been lots of slow riding and some vo2 max stuff in a week. I tried 4-5 different ways to get to that CTL number. Each time my power was almost the same.

Applying this to running, I have about 7 hours a week to train. So running as much sub threshold as I can, which gives a very good CTL score compared to say running 6 days, with long run, hills and a workout, means I'm creating more CTL for the same amount of time running the "hobby jogger" Norway model. This I think is the reason my times have improved, despite now not doing any proper REALLY hard stuff. I hope this makes sense? It's effectively a running version of what is very popular in cycling, "sweetspot" training.

In terms of running just at LT pace, of course not. You adjust the pace depending on the length of the reps + rest.

So for example 25x400 would be a faster pace, than the other end of the scale , 5x2k. But ultimately you are reaching the same state of sub threshold, just under. Remember threshold is a state, not a pace. That's why it's important to play around (if you can) with a lactate meter first, to get an idea and try to marry it up to the more traditional data you can get after each run. Ideally you would have a lactate meter all the time, but for hobby joggers like me, after a month or so you can probably get to 98% of where you need to be without it. For a pro, that 2% difference is a concern. But for me, I'm OK with that 😀

The Norwegian threshold training only works with higher mileage, as the threshold sessions are run at the lowest effort possible to get the desired stimulus, so you have to run higher mileage to compensate for the lower intensity. Otherwise you end up like The Athlete Special, slower than he was in high school in the peak years of his career.

Thank u for the reply. Very insightful. Unfortunately is wasted on this forum, but this is one of best and interesting posts I've read here.
U confirmed something I have always suspected myself about CTL, is all created equal. So rack up as much as u can without getting hurt and your fitness will improve.
I think this method will get someone very very close to their potential. Maybe not icing on the cake but very close . I think runners are quite a way behind cyclists in terms of the scientific thinking. But at least we runners don't look like those lycra clowns hehe

Some d-head on here told me hobbyjoggers shouldn't be attempting this sort of training so I say don't bother. Of course when I pointed out we are all hobbyjoggers, including those who run a 14 minute 5k, he went quiet.

If I wanted to run only 6 days a week, which day would be off?

This question makes my blood boil.

💊 💉