Colin said he did a 1500 meter workout with Nico where they did 9x400 in 55 average with 4 minutes rest.
Is this a normal workout for a top NCAA runner or incredibly impressive? I was quite impressed.
Also positive to see Nico do that kind of workout. Colin has a shorter background compared to Nico, so I’m almost more impressed with this workout for him.
Here’s the interview where he talks a lot about his training and where I heard the above:
And for coaches of LRC, do you recommend doing this kind of workout for your milers? I am a new coach who is trying to learn how to improve my team and have done the classic 10x400 with one minute rest at mile pace but not faster than mile pace with long rest.
This makes sense. If you look at Drew Bosley's strava, in addition to lots of long tempos and double thresholds, you will see lots of VERY fast reps with very long recovery
Sahlman's 800 PR is 1:48.07. Young's is 1:54.21 although he likely could go faster.
This is dumb. I've had the chance to speak with a nationally, close to globally-known for mid-distance, and they never had people doing 9x400 virtually at 800 pace with 4:00 rest. For young, it's faster than his 800 pace which is impossible, and for sahlman it's still too good to be true.
However, what could make sense is if you're taking the altitude conversion for 400m (I know it's not perfect as these are aerobic and the lack of oxygen hinders recovery), and assuming 55.9. According to a calculator I found, it converts to a 56.36, and then if you add the flying start they'd probably convert to around 57s. All in all, that would make it be 9x400 just faster than mile pace (probably ~1200 effort) which seems relatively reasonable.
Colin said he did a 1500 meter workout with Nico where they did 9x400 in 55 average with 4 minutes rest.
Is this a normal workout for a top NCAA runner or incredibly impressive? I was quite impressed.
Also positive to see Nico do that kind of workout. Colin has a shorter background compared to Nico, so I’m almost more impressed with this workout for him.
Here’s the interview where he talks a lot about his training and where I heard the above:
Sahlman's 800 PR is 1:48.07. Young's is 1:54.21 although he likely could go faster.
This is dumb. I've had the chance to speak with a nationally, close to globally-known for mid-distance, and they never had people doing 9x400 virtually at 800 pace with 4:00 rest. For young, it's faster than his 800 pace which is impossible, and for sahlman it's still too good to be true.
However, what could make sense is if you're taking the altitude conversion for 400m (I know it's not perfect as these are aerobic and the lack of oxygen hinders recovery), and assuming 55.9. According to a calculator I found, it converts to a 56.36, and then if you add the flying start they'd probably convert to around 57s. All in all, that would make it be 9x400 just faster than mile pace (probably ~1200 effort) which seems relatively reasonable.
You guys need to learn a bit about training and stop thinking so inside the box.
These two are RESISTANT athletes, excelling in long distance in a program that places an emphasis in that direction.
The physiological makeup allows them to do workouts like this. Stop looking at their race performances that are outside their focus. We need to focus on the end result of what the training is doing, not the relation to an event that isn’t their focus.
I don’t think Mike Smith or these athletes are expecting to run 3:26 in the 1500m but I’m not surprised at all to hear that athletes that have run 3:37 and 3:39 but probably have the strength to run 27:40 in the 10k did this workout.
If Centrowitz runs 3’30” in the 1500 and is doing 6x400 in 49-50 with 6’ rest, do we think he can run 1:39-1:40 in the 800? No, but we need to look at the EFFECT of the training.
Kimwetich tan 6x1000 in 2:32 but obviously couldn’t run even 3000m under 7:45.
Steve Cram was the same and if he could do 10x300 in 39 with 30-40” rest, then these guys can run 55s and 4’ rest.
This makes sense. If you look at Drew Bosley's strava, in addition to lots of long tempos and double thresholds, you will see lots of VERY fast reps with very long recovery
The long recovery part isnt necessary to be exact. Nor should it be fixated on. You just have to be sure they are done WELL as in powerful, excellent form, on your toes and efficient. They could do 10 minutes rest between and it wouldnt matter as long as they were done WELL.
It's impressive but not that surprising they could hit this workout. Both of their 1500 paces are 58s/400m, so running 3 seconds faster than 1500 pace for 400 with long rest is normal.
As done Well pointed out, the purpose of the workout was to run fast, but controlled 400m reps. They were probably fully recovered after 2:30, but this wasn't about aerobic stimulus. 4:00 minute recovery guarantees that the group could focus on the reps and getting the work done without being wiped aerobically. These also weren't full sprint either. It's the right mechanical load for the day. Everyone keeps trying to look at workouts in isolation and that's not how this works.
My experience is that most good coaches cap normal workouts at 800m pace at around 1200-1600 meters. 3-4 x 400 @ 800 pace with long rest is a fairly normal 2 weeks out from goal race kind of workout. 9x is insane, in my opinion. Even if the rest is long enough to prevent high levels of lactate from accumulating, that's a beating on the runners' legs. They've probably built up to it appropriately, though.
My experience is that most good coaches cap normal workouts at 800m pace at around 1200-1600 meters. 3-4 x 400 @ 800 pace with long rest is a fairly normal 2 weeks out from goal race kind of workout. 9x is insane, in my opinion. Even if the rest is long enough to prevent high levels of lactate from accumulating, that's a beating on the runners' legs. They've probably built up to it appropriately, though.
If they could run 9x400 in 55 with 4 min rest, then 55 isn't 800 pace.
I think as others said, it's more that much rest is strange for that number of reps. When you hear 8x400 or 10x400, you normally think 200m-400m jog or 1-2min recovery. When you hear full recovery, you normally think neuromuscular work or stuff like 2x600 at 800m pace. So this workout is weird. In an interesting way.
Anyone remember what Alan Webb's 400m workout in high school was?
I think as others said, it's more that much rest is strange for that number of reps. When you hear 8x400 or 10x400, you normally think 200m-400m jog or 1-2min recovery. When you hear full recovery, you normally think neuromuscular work or stuff like 2x600 at 800m pace. So this workout is weird. In an interesting way.
Anyone remember what Alan Webb's 400m workout in high school was?
Good point! This workout is definitely different than how most would do mid distance-paced workouts. Normally you would think these guys would be doing 10x400 in 60-58 w/ 2 min rest or 4 x 400 in 53-51 w/ 5 minutes rest. The high volume/high rest approach is definitely different, I wonder if there would be any distinguishable benefit to it.
This is a good workout if it is a progression of training they have done before. Looking at any single workout by itself doesn’t give you much. They are both healthy and seem pretty consistent, so quality workout.
Sahlman's 800 PR is 1:48.07. Young's is 1:54.21 although he likely could go faster.
This is dumb. I've had the chance to speak with a nationally, close to globally-known for mid-distance, and they never had people doing 9x400 virtually at 800 pace with 4:00 rest. For young, it's faster than his 800 pace which is impossible, and for sahlman it's still too good to be true.
However, what could make sense is if you're taking the altitude conversion for 400m (I know it's not perfect as these are aerobic and the lack of oxygen hinders recovery), and assuming 55.9. According to a calculator I found, it converts to a 56.36, and then if you add the flying start they'd probably convert to around 57s. All in all, that would make it be 9x400 just faster than mile pace (probably ~1200 effort) which seems relatively reasonable.
Nico's 1:54 was in Jan as a workout after doubling back 90 minutes later from running a PR mile in 4:02 at 7000 feet. Conversions on a one day run has him at 1:51ish. So absolutely NOT....this pace is not faster than his 800 pace. By this point in time Mike Smith knows what buttons to push to get what Nico needs. I'm sure Sahlman can provide feedback to advocate for himself as well. Regionals is a month out. Time to draw up workouts like people makeup plays in the dirt playing backyard football if you need to. Maybe this will lead to some sort of progression leading up to Regionals and NCAAs. And if they feel this works....go for it. Mike Smith requires no approval from Letsrun.
OK the 4 minute rest might seem long so obvious hitting the times is the most important thing. I guess the altitude conversion is :54. Do you think a little more time is put in there based off of observed workout habits from their coach that they sometimes finish a bit quicker...like :53? Or that since they are at 7000 feet they want to make sure they are more rested to ensure they hit these times. This amount of rest is intriguing and there could be something to be learned from this.
They are doing long rest in order to improve their speed by doing very fast reps. This is a particular need for Nico Young, because at his best, he can already stick with the best in the NCAA at 5000, 10000, and xc, but when it comes to the kick, with his overly upright stride, he doesn't have that gear shift or top end speed needed for the kick, even if he has run 3:55 in the mile. I would bet that they reduce the rest and try to maintain the pace as they move closer to nationals.
