Serious thread on non response to high stack shoes including those with carbon fiber

I think there will eventually be a backlash and more practical shoes will come back to popularity. This big shoes are currently a nice money maker for shoe companies. Most of us are average runners who don't get much benefit from fancy shoes with all the bells and whistles.

Those super stacked shoes are pretty cushy but I feel like they make your feet weak. What ever happened to Brooks Pure Flow? There is still the Kinvara. There is the Altra Escalante Racer.

What shoes do you like?

I am now a fat hobby jogger. My stride has always been I guess a little choppy? If the Garmin can be trusted by stride rate is around 180-190 per minute and has always been in that ballpark. I am a 5'6, 180lbs former never was old has been with a sick underpronation and midfoot tendancy!

I run in the Saucony Endorphin Speed and they are amazing. The reported stack height is 35mm with a 8mm drop. These shoes are amazing. This foam is amazing.

Alan

Tons of no nonsense low profile shoes are out there. I used to run the Nike Free Run or Nike Flex Run whatevers. They are cheap. They are shoes. They can be run in.

Alan

Redonkulous stack height is here to stay. Shoes are made for the average runner and the average runner nowadays wants to not feel the road at all, they constantly talk about "running on mushroom clouds" or whatever. We need the second coming of the barefoot fad to save us!

Can attest to this, have been running in them for over a year now and haven't looked back. Just takes a day or two to get used to the extra 'push' forward but they're very nice, cushy, light and speedy as the name implies. Good for easy recovery as well as tempo efforts, I wouldn't race in them personally but some do.

I'm 5'10" and 150 pounds. They help a lot

You didn't get on with NB pacer? In a world of high stack super shoes at the Pro level they work for Emily Sisson

The Streakfly is not a good shoe, but it's not because of the stack height.

If you've only tried the streakfly you can't really make this generalization.

fake news

I am supposedly a low responder to super shoes because my cadence is always high and vertical oscillation is low (and I’m a heel striker!) My teammates used to make fun of how I seemed to “roll” along the ground rather than bound. I have no idea how I ended up like this but it was good for a 2:35 marathon.

I did get a good deal on endorphin pros so out of curiosity I’m trying them for a half marathon in a couple weeks.

Meanwhile you may enjoy the saucony kinvara.

Check reviews. They wear out after only a few runs. New balance should study continental rubber. For a pro who can get new shoes whenever she wants, they are probably great. For the rest of us, even if they were just used for workouts, they wouldn't last a month.

Bad news. They have increased the stack height significantly in Kinvara 14.

If you don't respond in carbon fiber shoes it's because your form must absolutely suck.

Fix your stride so you'll get the proper energy return in each step.

That doesn't make much sense that high stack shoes give you calf injuries? Low stack shoes put much more pressure on calf muscles and peroneals. Its important to rotate shoes for that reason.

Quite a few 4mm drop Sauconys. The kinvara 10 was my favourite.

Well it doesn't make sense to me either, but since I can't buy my low stack racing flats I train in, anywhere but ebay, I've tried quite a few and the result is always the same. I suspect I use my calves and peroneals in a way that makes toe off/bounding/whatever from the low stack racing flats natural, for whatever it is my biomechanics do.

I do agree with the rotating shoes - but not due to pressure on the calf muscles, but so that they'll dry or whatever. It seems to make them last a tiny bit longer if I use a separate pair for morning and afternoon runs. However, I've never noticed any issues from not rotating shoes, unless they are worn out.

To the guy who says "fix your form" - I'm not aware my form is messed up. If I change how I run, I get slower. Maybe I pronate weird or something. I know one foot is smaller than the other by a significant amount because in a lot of shoes the right feels like it fits and the left has massive amounts of room, to the point I can't run in a shoe. Only in a shoe that is dead on in the right foot - like toes to the end of the shoe, can I run at all because otherwise the left shoe is flopping around. I tried shoes of different sizes once and the smaller one pinched my left foot. I don't have 200-500 for every pair of running shoes if I have to buy 2 pairs to get one pair anyways.

At this point, I'm praying my dwindling stock of streak lts can last until the age of high stack shoes ends and someone is willing to take a change on releasing a low stack racing flat without gimics like half the rubber in the forefoot isn't there, foam that wears out in 50 miles, upper that can't be lydiard laced because it would rip since its so thin, or roomy forefoots that fit like trainers.

Think about this - you will be hard pressed to find the stack height for most distance track and xc spikes. They typically are around the high teens to low 20s. You can use these for reps and a 10k - but suddenly when you move to the road, you need 10-20mm more stack to run fast?

Hmmm.

It makes plenty of sense if the high stack shoes are squishy and unstable, and the higher stack means more torque on your lower leg as you fall all over the place. There's also the issue that slamming into the squishy foam with your heel/midfoot could effectively turn your high stack shoe into a negative-drop shoe as your heel falls below your forefoot.

Ah yes, that’s why Kipchoge runs in completely minimalist flats

Yes, the only pros I can think of who eschew high stack shoes are Molly Huddle (says in testing she is not a responder) and Emily Sisson (she does a scaled-down supershoe). It seems exceedingly rare, and I'm not sure how an average runner could be able to determine that they are not a responder at all.