I've heard a lot about the great success attributed to 'double threshold days' at the upper levels of track and field... is there anyone here reaping benefits that are not already at that high level?
Should people try double threshold if they are not already at a particular mileage or speed, or is it just asking for injury/burnout?
Check Strava, a lot of people do double thresholds and keeps silent 🤫👍😄
You can copy pseudo double thresholds from slowest Ingebrigtsen brother, if you satisfied with his progress...🙄🤔
For low milers: forget about doubles, you will s@ck, burn out, loose motivation and can be injured. Bump easy miles first to the minimum frame (individual value from 80miles till 130 miles)
If you don't want to buy lactate device: forget about doubles, pace estimation and so on, it is not working like this...😏
The system is strength (endurance) based approach long term development
I've heard a lot about the great success attributed to 'double threshold days' at the upper levels of track and field... is there anyone here reaping benefits that are not already at that high level?
Should people try double threshold if they are not already at a particular mileage or speed, or is it just asking for injury/burnout?
Any insight is greatly appreciated; thanks!
It’ll definitely benefit those who have a deep running background, more than 4 years under their belt and some decent mileage. Trying to do double threshold sessions as a newer runner is good way to develop stress related injuries quickly and/or to overtrain.
Min mileage around 75 mpw. You should be comfortable with 8-10 mi single threshold sessions. Ability doesn't matter as much bc of everyone has a different ceiling but I figure most guys doing double T and getting positive results should be running at least 14 mid, and girls are running 16 high for the 5k.
Canefis is an account made my Ingebrigtsens to discourage people from doing double thresholds. No sane person would take training advice from someone who writes like this. This is why he's in every double threshold thread being an absolute moron.
Canefis is an account made my Ingebrigtsens to discourage people from doing double thresholds. No sane person would take training advice from someone who writes like this. This is why he's in every double threshold thread being an absolute moron.
Better to be a moron, but trains correctly under this system with a lactate meter instead of "play casino" and overtain/stagnate or injured, I do not care who listens me or not, just share my own experience. I will repeat again, as soon as I started to use the system with a lactate device, I discovered a lot of incorrect information/how system works in reality...
I've heard a lot about the great success attributed to 'double threshold days' at the upper levels of track and field... is there anyone here reaping benefits that are not already at that high level?
Should people try double threshold if they are not already at a particular mileage or speed, or is it just asking for injury/burnout?
Any insight is greatly appreciated; thanks!
Here is the original source for you:
mariusbakken.com
The Norwegian model of lactate threshold training and lactate controlled approach to training. A look at some of the concepts, history, and keys to improvement. I wrote most of the articles found…
From theory to workouts Written by Marius Bakken March 2000 “Using our technical advantages to copy their training principles” In the fall of 1998 I started using the Lactate Pro lactic…
- Simen Halle-Haugen on The Norwegian Training System
- Simen Halle Haugen Pt. 2
Well, you judge for yourself, if your miles per week, let's say 70, then how do you want to cram so much quality work at the threshold level per week, taking into account what Daniels recommended, and this is 10% of work per week, okay, according to this system up to 20-25%, then with 70 miles per week, 14 miles should be spent on threshold. From my personal experience, the system does not work for me when I run 80 miles per week or less, I simply could not recover and lactate did not fall with the pace how should be by original source, i.e. I stagnated. Look at how the slowest Ingebrigtsen trains, well, he stood at around 01:15:00 --01:17:00 @HM for a year now, because he does not use the system at 100% (low mileage, low threshold volume, etc.).
Remind you again, do not use the system without a lactate device, this is absolute lottery
Can someone post a short definition of "threshold training" in this context and also post an example of a "double threshold workout" for those of us who would be willing to try it if we knew approximately what was being suggested.
Thanks everyone for all the replies on this thread! I would similarly love to hear how anyone currently implements double threshold in their training regime or an example of how a sub-elite executes these sessions... if anyone is willing to share of course.
1. 12 (middle school), but I only began taking it seriously spring of my freshman year
2. 17. Began doubling my senior year summer, but I was really inconsistent. I only averaged about 40 mpw, but it was more like 30/50 rather than pure 40s. Began running double thresholds right after I graduated HS.
1. You don't have to run exactly at threshold to improve it. Running "steady" (about marathon) improves it, and running about 8k/10k pace also improves it.
2. One of these workouts isn't impressive by itself, but it's the cumulative effect of being able to hit 4 moderate workouts in a week.
I've heard a lot about the great success attributed to 'double threshold days' at the upper levels of track and field... is there anyone here reaping benefits that are not already at that high level?
Should people try double threshold if they are not already at a particular mileage or speed, or is it just asking for injury/burnout?
- Simen Halle-Haugen on The Norwegian Training System
- Simen Halle Haugen Pt. 2
Well, you judge for yourself, if your miles per week, let's say 70, then how do you want to cram so much quality work at the threshold level per week, taking into account what Daniels recommended, and this is 10% of work per week, okay, according to this system up to 20-25%, then with 70 miles per week, 14 miles should be spent on threshold. From my personal experience, the system does not work for me when I run 80 miles per week or less, I simply could not recover and lactate did not fall with the pace how should be by original source, i.e. I stagnated. Look at how the slowest Ingebrigtsen trains, well, he stood at around 01:15:00 --01:17:00 @HM for a year now, because he does not use the system at 100% (low mileage, low threshold volume, etc.).
Remind you again, do not use the system without a lactate device, this is absolute lottery
Good luck.
I have recommended the podcast with Simen Halle-Haugen on here a lot. I think to you in one of the threads at one point. Anyways, glad to see it’s being passed around. He addresses the common questions of:
1. Do I need to be at a certain mileage to use double threshold?
2. How do you implement them in new runners?
You can use double threshold at any mileage level. The most important thing to have when doing it is a lactate meter though. Most people will severely overestimate themselves on how threshold should feel.
Also, keep in mind that the Scandinavian ideas of threshold are “easier” than the American standard. Most Americans would try to target about 4.0 mmol or so in the lab. That is too high. Scandinavians search for the first session to be well under 3.0 mmol, realizing that you will carry a bit of the 1st session with you into the 2nd (at which point 3.0-3.5 is the max target).
Without a lactate meter, it is difficult to hold yourself accountable to the correct workout. Most will focus on pace, or “feeling” and end up overselling themselves. Sometimes you won’t notice the compounding nature of fatigue by doing things this way until it is too late.
Threshold isn’t a pace, it is more a state-of-being. One that’s target undulates constantly throughout the rhythm of training and daily life. Get a lactate meter and start doing double threshold if you want. You could start tomorrow. Be careful doing it without one though—at least in an effective manner.
- Simen Halle-Haugen on The Norwegian Training System
- Simen Halle Haugen Pt. 2
Well, you judge for yourself, if your miles per week, let's say 70, then how do you want to cram so much quality work at the threshold level per week, taking into account what Daniels recommended, and this is 10% of work per week, okay, according to this system up to 20-25%, then with 70 miles per week, 14 miles should be spent on threshold. From my personal experience, the system does not work for me when I run 80 miles per week or less, I simply could not recover and lactate did not fall with the pace how should be by original source, i.e. I stagnated. Look at how the slowest Ingebrigtsen trains, well, he stood at around 01:15:00 --01:17:00 @HM for a year now, because he does not use the system at 100% (low mileage, low threshold volume, etc.).
Remind you again, do not use the system without a lactate device, this is absolute lottery
Good luck.
I have recommended the podcast with Simen Halle-Haugen on here a lot. I think to you in one of the threads at one point. Anyways, glad to see it’s being passed around. He addresses the common questions of:
1. Do I need to be at a certain mileage to use double threshold?
2. How do you implement them in new runners?
You can use double threshold at any mileage level. The most important thing to have when doing it is a lactate meter though. Most people will severely overestimate themselves on how threshold should feel.
Also, keep in mind that the Scandinavian ideas of threshold are “easier” than the American standard. Most Americans would try to target about 4.0 mmol or so in the lab. That is too high. Scandinavians search for the first session to be well under 3.0 mmol, realizing that you will carry a bit of the 1st session with you into the 2nd (at which point 3.0-3.5 is the max target).
Without a lactate meter, it is difficult to hold yourself accountable to the correct workout. Most will focus on pace, or “feeling” and end up overselling themselves. Sometimes you won’t notice the compounding nature of fatigue by doing things this way until it is too late.
Threshold isn’t a pace, it is more a state-of-being. One that’s target undulates constantly throughout the rhythm of training and daily life. Get a lactate meter and start doing double threshold if you want. You could start tomorrow. Be careful doing it without one though—at least in an effective manner.
Also, keep in mind that the Scandinavian ideas of threshold are “easier” than the American standard. Most Americans would try to target about 4.0 mmol or so in the lab. That is too high. Scandinavians search for the first session to be well under 3.0 mmol, realizing that you will carry a bit of the 1st session with you into the 2nd (at which point 3.0-3.5 is the max target).
Without a lactate meter, it is difficult to hold yourself accountable to the correct workout. Most will focus on pace, or “feeling” and end up overselling themselves. Sometimes you won’t notice the compounding nature of fatigue by doing things this way until it is too late.
Lactate target levels are not transferable from athlete to athlete. Doing so is a big mistake.
Thanks everyone for all the replies on this thread! I would similarly love to hear how anyone currently implements double threshold in their training regime or an example of how a sub-elite executes these sessions... if anyone is willing to share of course.
Mo: double easy (<=LT1 point, or <=lactate base line: usually 1.0-1.4 mmol, control heart rate to be <=70% of HRmax, for Fast Twitch runner even slower: <=68% of HRmax)
Tu:
AM: 5x6min or 3x10min with 1/6 rest ratio (<=2.0 mmol);
PM: 20-24×400 (30min total intervals work) with 1/2 rest ratio (<=3.0 mmol, but more correct +-0.2 mmol around your LT2 point-laboratory threshold, the last rep can be slightly above LT2). Here intervals length can be even 30s÷45s, but need to adjust rest ratio in order to be within lactate limits
We: same as Monday
Th:
AM: same as Tuesday
PM: 10x3min with 1/3 rest ratio (<=3.0 mmol, but more correct -0.2 mmol around your LT2 point). Here intervals length also can be longer up to 10min, but might need to adjust rest ratio in such way to be within lactate limits
Fr: same as We
Sat: x-element session: hills or track (5-8 mmol lactate during base avoiding early peaking, but good stimuls and during peak weeks up to 10 mmol). Here is need some experiment with overal volume if you do not response to the doubles well
S: long run (for 5k-10k distances up to 2h, for HM and M more).
Tu and Th PM session can be interchanged, or you start week with faster workout or with slower
We or Fr instead of double easy can run medium long run if you are preparing for HM & M.
This is schedule for the base. During building period and peaking period you do less doubles, but more specific race workouts...
Adjust overal volume and find your own frame, where you respond good for the system and able to recover. This is explained in original source.
How to be sure that you respond to the system in proper way and everything is going fine?
- Every week or 2 your lactate during typical session at the same pace start to drop, or at the same lactate level your pace of typical sessions start to drop or both together, meaning your threshold pace start to be faster.
- It is individual, how many seconds per week or month can expect threshold pace to drop. For the elite, well developed runners what I found it is about 1s per month is consider a good progress, for the novice or undeveloped runners it can be 1s per 1-2 week easily.
- During base building your threshold pace must raise, but during peak weeks you balance your training and sacrifice threshold pace (pace drops), but lactate tolerance/race ability raise. This is explained in podcasts.
So, you target:
- maximise threshold pace during the base building;
- balance between threshold pace sacrificial and raise lactate tolerance/race ability during peak and race season.
Caution: don't expect that when you start to perform typical sessions like 5x6min the pace will be your marathon pace, and sessions like 10x3min the pace will be your threshold pace, and session like 25x400 the pace will be 10K pace. Most probably all those paces will be slower, it is fine, your target is lactate level and your feeling. So, how to start to do for example 5x6min, which pace, roughly it can be MP pace +-10s, so start very conservative first rep and measure lactate, better to have an error and underperform and hit lower lactate instead of overshout. Same with 10x3min, start at pace threshold +5÷10s. As soon as you do more weeks doubles all those paces will drop. Aftee multiple thresholds you will be able to hit paces by feeling and after lactate test will confirm that you was in right zone.
