Thoughts on why recreational runners don't improve and how they can

It sounds like you are saying that shorter 8’ pace intervals are better than longer 10’ intervals. One trains raw speed, the other speed endurance, so most runners need both.

isn't this what 'strides' are

1. Improvability is genetic, some people really are just that bad. It's life

2. People lie about everything. They might be training sure but are they actually training hard ? Im also convinced a lot of people dont know how hard theyre supposed to race. I think a lot of very casual people give up the second they get tired because they simply dont realize youre supposed to feel awful at points.

3. Diet, many people run for 20 minutes and assume they can just wolf down a 2k calorie meal. It's not sustainable.

There are probably 10 other small things I could list that makes the avg person not improve.

I've posted this multiple times but, especially among older runners who don't want to hear it, it gets ignored. Running THAT much slower than previous baseline is almost entirely explainable by loss of functional muscle mass. To maintain any particular stride length and cadence requires a particular amount of power, resilience, flexibility and capacity for recovery. As we age, we lose muscle mass and muscle resilience, so stride shortens. We become less flexible and recover more slowly.

Many aging runners fail to understand the above and so try to hold onto pace and distance based on previous experience. They wind up injured, often starting with smalls tweaks that hang around, and/or become demoralized instead of doing the natural thing, which is to SLOW DOWN and allow more recovery with age. Starting in the late 40s that usually means slowing down BIG TIME.

OP, also, what you describe is striders, and they've been a part of most every training plan most of us have ever done. Second, striders and hard pace work become increasingly untenable with age. At age 57 if I tried a fraction of the hard/speed stuff I did just five years ago I'd now be a non-runner.

People don't want to deal with age, so they either (1) take 'supplements' or PEDs to stave off the inevitable, or (2) go too hard and fast and wind up on the sidelines.

The wise runner with decades under their belt accepts these immutable facts and slows down. I just ran a marathon at a pace that would have greatly embarrassed me ten years ago and now I'm prepping to run an ultra, where pace doesn't much matter at all. But unlike most of my fellow runners at my age, I'm out there, enjoying it, getting in the (slow) miles. The fascination among older runners I see on LRC to hold onto that speed is not healthy. Further, the rare successful old guy who can still run fast and train hard into their 50s and 60s is just incredibly lucky in the genetic lottery or (I often suspect) adulterating their bodies with banned or 'prescribed' substances.

Last, for most of us who have been running for decades, the obsession with pace and racing becomes unattractive. Does it matter, coming in 217th versus 350th in the Fall marathon? Just keep moving at whatever pace you can manage well.

That's the point I wound up. In my youth, I'd get SO worked up about pace and place. I was never an elite, just a locally competitive hobby jogger. Now that I'm past my pathetic prime, I realize it doesn't matter.

Sure, I still love running and racing. I try to beat whomever happens to be in front of me with a mile to go, but really, I know it doesn't matter. No one will care what time or place I came in, and if I won my age group.

Given this, I train and race in ways I enjoy. That may or may not be the way that leads to the most improvement, and I'm okay with that. Being healthy and happy are the primary goals of my running these days. Not sure why it was ever anything other than that.

I agree. For me it also applies to getting faster after focusing on hills for a while.

No, it's not that. What I'm thinking is that one of the limitations of, let's call them hobbyjoggers, is the inability to move their legs in a wider range of motion because they have NEVER done it. Not only that, but their muscles lack strength in that range of motion. So even if they attempt intervals, they just wind up shuffling, but at a faster pace. They barely lift their feet off the ground.

I found that forcing myself to run for a very short distance nearly as fast as I could go for 5 seconds or so paid tremendous dividends in less than a month. Once I could hit my goal pace for around 30m, I gradually increased the distance to 100m. One surprising benefit is that my long intervals improved dramatically as I did these speed/form/range of motion short running efforts.

Using this approach, a recreational runner would run flying 30 meter repeats until they could do several in 8 seconds... a 7min/mile pace. Once they could do that, they would increase the distance to 50m and then to 100m. My unproven premise is that many slow runners would benefit from this approach.

It would be interesting to take some runners who are stuck at a 35 minute 5k and see how much they could improve in 3-4 months using this approach.

In no particular order:

1. They run too many days at the same pace. No threshold runs, no hill reps, no tempos, no fast finish long runs, they just go running every day.

2. Diet/Weight. People will shop for a shoe that is 1 oz lighter than another but fail to worry about that extra 12 lbs they're carrying around their beltline.

3. Not enough mileage/inconsistent.

4. Look to do too much stuff other than running. You aren't going to squat, lunge, or jump rope or jazzercise yourself to a PR, that stuff is just the sprinkles on top of the cake. You need to run- A LOT if your goal is to be a better runner.

Top end speed is something most distance runners never consider, but is essential for form and ROM. (I'm no exercise scientist but I'd suspect that there are some metabolic boosts from doing those very short, but very very intense workouts as well.)

You are definitely onto something.

You're probably right.

Now, let me ask you this: will the world become a better place because a group of 35 minute 5kers became 30 minute 5kers? Will their lives become better? If so, how?

Most people running 35 minute 5ks are just fine with getting some exercise, being outside, and enjoying the movement, the better health, and being a part of a community event. Improvement isn't even on their radar, and that's okay.

I was in a training group for many years that had a very wide range of abilities. We would do hill circuits (fast up the hill, slow jog recovery) on a course in the park with everyone running together. The course was short enough that the faster runners would lap the slower runners multiple times over the course of the workout. When I would get to a fast hill interval alongside some of the slower runners, some would try to keep up on the fast interval. These were 25 min 5kers. In general, they could keep up well enough on a single sprint interval. But over the course of a 10-15 min session of hill repeats, I would probably go almost a mile further than they would. And the slower runners were very dedicated and were training hard for marathons, etc.

For recreational runners, I do not think that range of motion is what is holding them back. I think for most, they simply lack the genetics to accel at distance running. They don't have the "big running engine" or are just too big boned or a combination of the two.

For older runners (50+), the shuffle is often a symptom of inadequate recovery and poor training techniques. If you try to keep the same training schedule that you had 10-20 years ago, you will get into a spiral where your legs are always dead and even jogging easy for a few days does not help you recover. Almost everyone I know who was able to run fast times 50+ was a dedicated pool runner (or some other cross training) and ran minimal mileage compared to 10-20 years ago.

That implication is incorrect in many (and maybe most) cases.

Never claimed I wasn't an idiot.

Unpopular opinion, but I think a lot of people just don't push themselves hard enough. You hear all the talk about making sure you do your easy days easy, but I think that's only necessary when you actually start being capable of running 'fast' paces. If it's hard for you to run 9:00 per mile pace, then you just need to keep running a bunch of 9:00 miles and eventually it isn't hard. Going 12:00 mile pace on your 'easy' day isn't really doing much for you. It's barely more than going for a walk.

Another thing is volume, most people just don't run enough. If you only run about 15-20 miles per week, then a 3 mile run is not a short run. How are you going to push yourself hard for 3 miles when you typically only run that far on an easy run. That's where you get the over-distance training to come in, do over-distance tempos so that you can run faster for a shorter distance, and that shorter distance eventually is kind of long.

Only if you're running a ton of mileage is going super slow on easy runs good, and only if you're doing really hard workouts can you get away with low mileage.

Didn’t read anything here but 90% of people I would say easy runs too fast and workouts/hard days too slow. And then sleep more.

Many (maybe most) slow hobby joggers don't do workouts/hard days at all. They just go for a run several days a week at whatever pace feels comfortable.

And that's okay. This entire thread assumes a goal for hobby joggers (getting faster) that many of them don't have. For many, it's not about trying to place 200th instead of 250th at the turkey trot. It's about exercise, well being, and being a part of an event.

Absolutely agree with this and it's especially true for older people. I watched a masters xc race and the older the runner, the shorter the stride - and these guys were running as hard as they could.

In addition to 'flyers', i think plyometrics are the key to that spring as muscle mass declines.

I'm a recreational runner and I will say I've been taken aback when pros casually throw out things like "yeah, on those laps I tasted blood" or "my vision was going in and out but I felt like I could stay strong."

I mean, I would stop immediately if any of this was happening.