Why am I so bad at Xc compared to Track?

Not too bad. My son ran 17:50 as a freshman and then 4:25 in track.

Clearly something was amiss. These are not the same runners.

A freshman running 17:50 off no base is realistic to improve to 4:25. It’d be much more of a shock if he were a senior.

There’s lots of 4:30 guys that have trouble breaking 17 in XC. They typically though can run 2 flat in a 800. You’re probably more mid distance speed endurance oriented. You’re a Seb Coe not a Jakob Ingebrigsten.

What's the reference mean?

He ran 4;12 and 16:40 senior year.

I was once probably a slower version of you. As a junior, I ran 4:46 for 1600 but had been unable to break 18:10 the fall before. As a senior, I ran 17:09 once, but was more consistently a 17:45-type runner, despite later dipping under 10 for 3200. Some thoughts that may (or may not) be helpful.

I was what my coach described as a rhythm runner. I didn’t change gears efficiently but could grind out a pace. Relative to my teammates, I performed best on courses with a few long, painful hills, rather than courses with several smaller undulating hills. That 17:09 was on a flat, packed dirt course. The course we ran on the most had trails, sand, uneven and sometimes boggy grass, and mud. It wasn’t super hilly, but I could never find my rhythm and consistently lost to kids I could dust around a track over almost any distance. A teammate who was really efficient in the mud nearly beat me in a downpour over 5K when I had a two mile time 45 seconds faster than his. It could be that notwithstanding your fitness, you’re not as well situated (or trained) for cross-country running. Running on dirt or grass is not like running on a synthetic track. Getting comfortable with changing gears, efficient stride length, turnover, and form for the courses you run could also help.

Separately, it wasn’t until I was a senior that I learned how to pace myself properly over a full 5K. You might underperform in cross country relative to track if you pace well on the shorter distances around the oval where your coach can call out splits, but not over a longer cross-country course where you might have to run off feel and competition alone. This you can work on with racing strategy and also how you run your tempo workouts and long runs.

It may also be that your cross-country training builds a nice fitness base for spring track, and as you continue to improve throughout high school, your track training helps your cross country performance and your cross country training, but that your cross country times may feel slow compared to your track times for the same year because you ran them in the fall. If you time trialed a 5K over a local cross country course in June, would that result have been better than your times from 6-8 months earlier? Don’t underestimate the compounding effect of an injury plus Covid-19. You may just have been unprepared for the most recent season.

I was a 17:00 5k Senior who ran 4:32, 1:56, 49.8...all off of 35-40 mpw. what is OP's 800 time?

bc you're weak

To build strength for hills, run hills. Do variations like short, high intensity steep hills, 8-10 seconds, jog down; or less steep 6-8x300-400m hills at mile pace; or hill circuits on runs where you loop around with long hills at moderate tempo; or just work the hills when you get to them on your runs.

To build strength to maintain pace, start with 3x mile, then next week, 3x 1 1/2 mile, then after a few more weeks, 3x2 miles. Also, long repeats on a grass course, something like 800-2k repeats. These workouts help you to bridge from where you are strong to where you are weak.

There are many ways to kill the horse that is the mile.

You can run a good mile off of aerobic strength, or muscular strength, or a high speed reserve. For most you want a good combo of all 3 for success. You may be more talented in the speed and muscular endurance side of things. Nothing wrong with that.

People separate track into sprinters and distance runners, when really it’s more complex than that. You may be a guy that’s somewhere in between. Have you tried much in the 400/800m?

I personally find the most success in the 600m-1000m range, and when I’m in sub 18:00 5k shape, I’m also in around 4:40 mile shape. For most people they would expect to be running more like 5:00. Some people run 16:30 and barely break 5:00. See what I’m saying?

Freshman year I ran 18:27 pr in the 5k. My teammate who I had ran the EXACT same workouts with the last year and a half ran 17:30. I had also beat this kid in EVERY race during track season. My coach made me believe I wasn’t mentally tough which made me depressed and run even slower. Me and my teammate ran together again that winter and I assumed he would beat me in track as well. I was wrong. Again in every race I demolished him. My mile was 4:44 and his was 10 seconds slower. My 800 was 2:05 and his was 220. That’s when I realized my coach had been wrong and I had no reason to doubt myself. I simply had more fast twitch muscle and he had slow twitch muscles. I did tons of tempo this summer which has helped some, but he’s still got me by 45 seconds. And that’s alright. Our bodies are different.

To be outstanding at any distance 100M to the marathon) it takes hard consistent training, But, The longer the race, it becomes less about talent and more about how much training you put into that race. Are you putting in the work? Also, IMO The longer the race the more mental it becomes so you need to train yourself mentally as well

Some people are the opposite.

I ran 15:51 (sub 16 3 times)in xc but only 9:49/4:31(51s 4x4 after 2-3 races every meet. I even ran a 23s 200m) I truly think my track struggles were due to allergy induced asthma and the season ending in may. I once did a time trial late July base training with no speed workouts for a solid 2 months and ran 4:31 and felt much stronger than I ever did in track season.

On the flip side I believe that the guys who are much better at track are rhythm runners and most likely struggle in heat/hills.It sounds like you know what you need to work on though. Do you stuggle with hills/heat

I think it has a lot to do with your stride mechanics. The folks that seem to glide over the ground with a smooth, flowing stride are usually better at XC. In contrast, some runners seem to rely a lot on the energy return from the landing/loading phase on harder surfaces (track and roads) to propel themselves forward. Those folks usually struggle more on softer surfaces like grass. Half my team in college could crush an 8/10k on the grass, but come outdoor, they were not beating some of the track studs at the same distances. You can see examples of professional runners who demonstrate the same phenomenon—Haile Gebrselassie and Alan Webb come to mind. Not to say that they weren’t good at XC, but they were comparatively much better on harder surfaces.

Yup, this is familiar. 16:50, 4:30, 1:55, 50.9 in high school for me.

As I got older my 400 time didn't budge but I got down to 15:25, 4:16, 1:53 from improved endurance. I know that isn't amazing improvement but I didn't run in college and made these improvements on my own in my late 20's so I'm proud of it.

To the OP - people will say go for higher mileage, and sure, do that if you can but it's not only about mileage. One of my best seasons I was battling injuries kind of all year so only running 5 days a week with mileage in the 40-45 mpw range. I would cross train the other days, something like 60 minutes easy on the stationary bike. But here were some keys for me that year:

- Build up that long run to 90-100 minutes

- Get used to running in that tempo range, 5:30-6 minute pace. Maybe it takes all season to work your way from 6 to 5:30 but it's something you're actively working on. This can come in different varieties - 20 minute tempo, fartleks, longer intervals with short rest.

- This was something I had previously ignored but also occasionally work on slower than tempo pace but still good hard running. Maybe 30 seconds per mile slower than tempo. It almost feels like no man's land at first but you get more comfortable at it. I remember working this all fall and by mid-winter my tempo runs were like 5:30-5:40 pace but I could also knock out 10 miles at 6:00 pace and still feel like I could keep going. That was new for me.

Of course keep the normal stuff going that you would expect if training for 1500-5k, and keep easy days easy, but making sure I was always working on these comfortably hard paces - 5:30-6:30 pace depending on your fitness and where you are in the training cycle - really paid off.

Simple: you are better at the mile than you are at the 5k.

that's probably your marathon / steady pace. doing this helps you build a base to run longer/faster tempos, which lets you run faster races.

some people are also more built for XC than track, and vice versa. BigBoy said it well that stride mechanics are important, but the ability to cruise over hills is dependent more on strength - both core/muscular and aerobic - than raw speed. I had high enough aerobic fitness (and, I believe, a high VO2 max with a lower LT) that I'd be able to run at 5:00 or slightly faster pace - so in the 5k and in a championship 3200 - without feeling tired until the last fifth, but I didn't have enough raw speed to be a better miler.