Tempo runs not getting faster and I am tired of sucking

You're running too fast on "tempo" runs. They are more like 95% races for you. Try cutting them back to 6:30-40 and breaking them up into intervals. Also make sure you're getting in proper track work once a week.

Cumsiglio wrote:

You're running too fast on "tempo" runs. They are more like 95% races for you. Try cutting them back to 6:30-40 and breaking them up into intervals. Also make sure you're getting in proper track work once a week.

According to my 158 average heart rate for my 4 miles at 6:15 I think I am not running them too fast.

If your avg HR is 158, just run them faster. If your max HR is around 200, than 150-165 is kind of a useless grey area. If it’s too hard to go faster when your HR is only 158, then your monitor is broken. I can sustain 170 +/- 5 bpm for 8 or so miles before it starts to become an issue.

I’ve found a well calibrated treadmill can be a useful tool to teach your body to go faster on tempo day. It’s a very controlled environment and you can run your exact desired pace. I’d go 5:50 pace or so for 2 miles 3 years ago, and just slowly built myself up to 10 miles at the same pace. Now I can go back and do those 3-5 mile tempos at 5:15-5:25 pace, and will continue building that up to 10 miles, and will rinse and repeat this process and improve. The outdoor conversion will be 5-10 seconds a mile off, but tempos are for building aerobic strength, which is all about what your heart and lungs are doing and not your legs.

What else do you do in training? Do you have enough variety in your sessions. If you've been doing the same thing for a few years it's likely a change will benefit you. Mixing in some short intervals, hills or fartlek might help.

having a "goal tempo pace" is some serious big brain stuff. tempo is a feeling, not a pace. if you want to get technical with it then we can start talking about aerobic and anaerobic threshold, heart rate, etc.

maybe try doing some faster stuff for a training block and see if that helps. or go all-in on mileage, like try to get to 100 mpw gradually or something. you won't know until you try. clearly continuing to do the same stuff you've been doing isn't working for you.

What does your overall periodization look like? Are your doing multiple cycles a year or just one?

What is your other training like? Easy run pace? Are you doing a second workout each week? Intervals? Long run?

I feel like I see this kind of post on here a lot: some guy "increased" their mileage from 40 mpw to 65 mpw and thinks that they should be running faster races.

1. 65 mpw is about the same as 40 mpw. Like it or not, it's true. It's especially true if your training isn't very organized and intentional. 40 mpw is enough to reach most running goals, and 65 mpw isn't that much more than 40 mpw.

2. I bet that you're sacrificing quality for volume. Most people do this. They increase their mileage but they need to reduced intensity in workouts. For most people the change from 40 to 65 mpw is usually more of a decrease in intensity than an increase in volume. It's easy to trick yourself into this too, because it's easier to run 65 mpw easier than it is to run 40 mpw with a lot of quality.

3. It sounds like you might be racing your tempos? Are you sure that you are running "tempos" at 6:10-6:20? For example, when you are in the 30-40 minute range of a longer tempo, are you maintaining that pace without increasing your effort to a higher intensity?

Don't let your tempos be a mental blocker for you. There's nothing special about working out at X or Y pace. Training is meant to hit the desired energy system and adapt.

Here's my recommendation, try threshold interval workouts for a while. 6x1 mile with 1:00 rest or 3x2 mile with 2:00 rest. Go by "tempo effort". In theory these workouts should be easier than your current 4 mile tempos.

I'll bet if you do 6x1 mile one week, then 3x2 mile the next, then go back to your 4 mile tempos, you will feel much stronger and mentally fresher. I almost guarantee you will break through your plateau (which I think is mostly mental in your case).

Also as others have said, you might be going too hard on your tempos, despite what the analytics say. Hammering to hit a goal pace is not the point. You really should have some left in the tank after these workouts. It should be "comfortably hard", which is a feeling only you know for yourself.

took the money and ran wrote:What is your other training like? Easy run pace? Are you doing a second workout each week? Intervals? Long run?

Excellent questions, and I'm hoping the OP will continue the discussion. Also, good advice from everyone so far.

For me, Daniels threshold runs (4 or 5 miles at 1-hr race pace) were always impossible during training. I would attempt them, but ran 10-15 seconds per mile too slow. I fared better doing 3 x 2-mile, or progression runs.

The biggest improvement in threshold pace resulted from running faster workouts (800m or mile repeats at 3K-5K race pace), adding long runs (18-20 miles), and medium-long progression runs (12-16 miles closing at 10K race pace)

In my 40s, I was very similar to the OP: 40-60 mpw, 17:10 5K, 1:21 HM. As a youth, not much faster -- didn't break 16 for 5K or 2:40 for marathon.

You should really read the Marius Bakken thread if you have not. He went for 5k only so maybe you have to focus a little more on long runs to run 10k and HM, but for the focus and way of training the threshold pace he could give you at least something to immediately change in relation to your tempo running. I would also consider your interval pace. How hard? He discusses that as well.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=11082891

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

You should really read the Marius Bakken thread if you have not. He went for 5k only so maybe you have to focus a little more on long runs to run 10k and HM, but for the focus and way of training the threshold pace he could give you at least something to immediately change in relation to your tempo running. I would also consider your interval pace. How hard? He discusses that as well.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=11082891

I have tried really hard myself the last years to run the LT pace faster and I have just stagnated. I have tried harder and more training, pushing the LT, pulling it, volume and so on. Now I try to be sure I recover, but follow a lot of the principles of Marius Bakken. I also control the intensity and do not try to train too hard thinking that gives better performance.

First he does not believe in a tempo run, he uses reps. and he thinks it is important to train in the range from 2h race pace up to LT, with very very little above LT. He thinks slightly above LT or short and controlled hard in limited amounts weekly is good, but as 20% of the total weekly quality volume maybe? He also thinks easy should be easy.

I'm a fast twitch and suck at tempos too.

I try to run my tempos slower for longer.

feefeefoofoo wrote:

For the past few years I've been stuck doing tempo runs between 6:10 and 6:20. I've been racing 5k's, 8k's, and half marathons. I've upped my mileage from 40 mpw to 65 mpw. I still can't run any faster and I feel like increasing my mileage is just wasting my time. What should I do? I want to eventually break 16:30 in the 5k and get to around 1:18 in the half marathon. Literally I just finished a 4 mile tempo in 6:15 average. Disappointed that it hasn't changed in 2 years. I want to tempo around 5:45. How do I get there???

PRs: 17:53 5k

8k: 29:44

Half Marathon: 1:20:42

You're overreacting. Not that many girls faster than you.

Why are you so focused on racing your tempo runs? Your should focus on racing your races.

1ub2run wrote:

I'm a fast twitch and suck at tempos too.

I try to run my tempos slower for longer.

Valid point! As far as I have gathered of info and if you are fast twitch probably limit LT and either do easy enough to NOT train those fast twitch too much (approx 2h race pacer) or train your FT with faster than LT work (since FT types can handle more of it than ST types). Somewhat a over/under LT polarized approach. The reaoning is that FT types activate their larger share of FT at lower paces than ST types and too much LT work can tire FT types while ST types can handle a lot and thrive on it. I also think the same applies to too much easy volume at a too fast pace. That traines ST types better than FT.

feefeefoofoo wrote:

Cumsiglio wrote:

You're running too fast on "tempo" runs. They are more like 95% races for you. Try cutting them back to 6:30-40 and breaking them up into intervals. Also make sure you're getting in proper track work once a week.

According to my 158 average heart rate for my 4 miles at 6:15 I think I am not running them too fast.

Heart rate isn't always a helpful metric. This poster is correct. You're running your "tempo" runs way too faster. 6:15 is closer to your threshold pace. If you want to improve you need to learn to run slower. Maybe it "feels" easy but the truth is that your feeling is likely off. It has been calibrated to this too hard effort.

A few suggestions: do longer tempos but slower. Start with 6 at 6:40 pace. Can work up to 8 at this pace. DO NOT RUN TOO FAST. If you do, it will only lead to trouble.

Do repeats. 4-5xMile at 6:15-20 pace with 90s jog. Be very strict on the pacing. It'll feel easier than the tempo runs. Maybe too easy. Good. It should. Do this for a month, or a few, and then you'll see improvements.

Most importantly, and this goes to the post with the Marius Baaken article, learn the feeling. Learn the correct sensation of running sub-threshold effort and tempo runs. Once you learn the effort you can progress the paces. But the pace should always follow the effort. Do not try to chase the pace.

feefeefoofoo wrote:

I want to tempo around 5:45. How do I get there???

Improve your times at shorter distances.