Stuck at sub 18:30 for a year. How to run sub 18?

I would try swapping out one of your 400 sessions for 5X 1000m repeats and aim for 3:25-3:30 per km. Jog easy for 2min between repeats and every 2 weeks reduce your recovery by 30sec until your recovery is only 1 minute. This will help your body feel comfortable running at faster than race pace and so the actual pace required to break 18min will feel easy come race day. I would also try adding in one long run of 2hrs on a Sunday (if not already) and two other easy runs of 75-90min between your harder sessions. This will give you a ton of strength and also help with pace maintenance for longer. Hope this helps.

I'm surprised you can't go faster on that regimen. What pace are your tempo runs?

I haven't run a 5k in a long time, but I just ran 36 in the 10k on 45 miles per week with a 3-5 mile tempo at 6:30 pace and 12x400. Everything else 8 minute miles.

Not sure how much you're periodizing, but it would be good to have a "base phase" focused on volume, tempo, threshold, and critical velocity work. After that go into a 12 ish week cycle with a v02 max session as said above.

I am far from an expert but I think that is a good starting point.

Sub 18 wrote:

40 years old with avg weekly of 60, 2 sessions 400s and tempo runs, plus a long run.

How can I lower my 5k time to sub 18?

Maybe your training has problems, but there is not way that we would be able to know.

Depends what "tempo" and "long" runs means to you.

If by "tempo" you mean 3-6 miles at around 6:05 - 6:20 min./mi., then that's good.

Long runs are good, but if your goal is to improve your 5k time, then you are wasting your time if your long runs are greater than 10 miles.

Agree on the tempo length, but have to disagree on the long run length, although I'm very much a proponent of Lydiard's style of training. Lydiard had the likes of Peter Snell who was an 800m/1500m runner running upward of 100miles per week with a Sunday run of 2.5-3hrs. Snell went on to set multiple world records over those distances. That high mileage style of training gives you incredible strength.

Sub 18 wrote:

40 years old with avg weekly of 60, 2 sessions 400s and tempo runs, plus a long run.

How can I lower my 5k time to sub 18?

How fast are your 400s and how many? Are you doing two 400 sessions and 2 tempos a week? You are 40, give yourself a rest and cut the tempos down to 1 every 2 weeks. Swap out 1 of the 400 workouts with a random very fast fartlek where all of the intervals are btw 50-150 m; focus on going very fast and working on form and turnover during these sessions. The volume is fine, but as you get older you have to tone down the workout volume and focus most on speed when you do workouts. That should get your body the rest and speed intensity needed to get down under 18.

what about some hill sprints? how s your raw speed?

GreatDane1 wrote:

Agree on the tempo length, but have to disagree on the long run length, although I'm very much a proponent of Lydiard's style of training. Lydiard had the likes of Peter Snell who was an 800m/1500m runner running upward of 100miles per week with a Sunday run of 2.5-3hrs. Snell went on to set multiple world records over those distances. That high mileage style of training gives you incredible strength.

How long can a long run really be on 60 mpw though?

I agree that long runs will probably help anyone in the 18:00 5k range, but it also seems like a 40 year old would get more benefit from shorter long runs that don’t require as much recovery.

Runners that ran 100 mpw and achieved great success at their peaks were not in their 40’s.

GreatDane1 wrote:

Agree on the tempo length, but have to disagree on the long run length, although I'm very much a proponent of Lydiard's style of training. Lydiard had the likes of Peter Snell who was an 800m/1500m runner running upward of 100miles per week with a Sunday run of 2.5-3hrs. Snell went on to set multiple world records over those distances. That high mileage style of training gives you incredible strength.

How long can a long run really be on 60 mpw though?

I agree that long runs will probably help anyone in the 18:00 5k range, but it also seems like a 40 year old would get more benefit from shorter long runs that don’t require as much recovery.

Runners that ran 100 mpw and achieved great success at their peaks were not in their 40’s.

At 40yo, why run 60mpw to break 18? I think less mileage, with more easy/recovery days would be more effective. For example:

Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri 40-45 min easy

Wed - 90 min long run, same or slower easy pace with last 10-15-20 min pick-up to steady sub-threshold effort (not full tempo)

Sat - Workout

Sun - Off or very easy pool recovery

Assuming you're working a M-F week, I'd suggest workout on Saturday with Sun off bc at 40, rest/recovery becomes more important -- and if you've been running for a few years, at 40 a long run won't be as taxing on you as a workout so midweek should be ok I think.

Here's an approach for the workouts -- a bit different from maybe what's considered standard, but I think it should be reasonable and effective for a 16-20 min 40+ guy. Let's say you are targeting a race in (minimum)12 weeks to (better) 6-8 months from now. For the first half of that time, alternate these 2 sessions:

A) warmup, 20' tempo/threshold effort (OR mix in 5 x 1000m tempo/threshold pace with 200m jog), 4 x hill sprints, cooldown. Begin with 60-80m hills and gradually lengthen to 200m-ish hills over time.

B) warmup, hill repeats with jogdown rec, cooldown. Begin with 12 x 200m-ish at 1500/mile effort, then 12 x 300m-ish at 3K/2-mi effort, then 12 x 400m at 5K effort. Complete your workout with 3 sets of bodyweight lunges (front, side, diagonal); you can start with as few as 5 reps ea and build up to as many as 50. And 3 sets of single-leg bodyweight heel drops (4-count down) / calf raises (2-count up); you can start with as few as 3 reps ea and build up to as many as 20 or 25.

For the second half of that time, alternate these 2 sessions:

C) same (OR 5K TT / practice race), but finish with 4 x 100m accelerations -- begin as a stride, smooth sprint finish.

D) Track: 12 x 400m (alternate with 3 x 1600m) at or slightly faster than current 5K pace. Both sessions equal time recovery. Complete workout with 3 sets of squat-jumps; start with as few as 10 reps and build up to however many you dang well please.

Two weeks pre-race -- ease up on mileage, do a few sharpening sessions, race.

Do a couple-few months of easy runs + strides, plus a weekly 90 min long run with lunges and calves, 1 day off, then begin the above cycle again.

Hope this helps. Have fun, good luck :)

Drink Happy Dad seltzer and Howler Head whiskey on the reg. Also, go on wagoo mongo degenerate weekend bendies and run at least 2 times per week. With talent you'll break 18 with this regimen. Guaranteed.

Agreed on less mileage.

If you're only running recently even if you don't change anything you'll likely drop below 18 anyway.

If you're running a few years it looks like you're running too much.

You're probably physically too tired without realising and dropping mileage will give you the reserve power that only rest can give.

Not gospel but definitely something for you to consider.

Which of these is (or would be) a harder workout for you:

- 12 x 400 @78s with a 400m jog

- 5x mile @ 6:05 with 60s recovery

- 6x 1k @3:30 with 2:30-3:00 jog recovery

- 10k progression run 7:05 -> 6:15, drop 10s per mile

- 90 minutes @ 7:30 pace

Every other week skip 400's and do 10 x 150 yd uphills at moderate pace....get ready to fly....

Find a race where you know how fast the athletes are going to run, and work on hanging with them. You can't do this by running 19 minute pace hoping to kick it in the last 600 m.

Racing makes you faster, but most here try to do it by the numbers. Its why they're here

when i got back under 18 in my mid-40s, the 5 x 1000 workout at goal pace was the key ingredient

early the rest internal was 60-90 seconds.. as i got close to my goal race, it was under 30 seconds.. when i could nail the last one at slightly faster than goal pace, i knew i was ready

i also did a few 20-min tempo-type progression runs 7/7/6 mins, moderate/hard/harder....finishing at 5k goal pace (this is after being well warmed up, of course)

I feel like folks already gave you really good advice in here in terms of other workouts to swap in & periodization.

I agree that you should mix in reps from 600 to 1600 instead of doing 400s every week. If you're doing 400s @ 5k pace, that's not enough to get ready to hold it for 5k unless you're doing 16-20 x 400 on short rest. I would rather see 5 x 1k on 1:30-2:00 rest one week & 12 x 400 on 1:00 rest @ 3k pace the next. Keep in the strength stuff. Think about variations there. If you always do a straight tempo run, break it up to get in more volume. Maybe your tempo is always 3-4 miles. Do 3 x 10:00 @ T to get in 5ish miles. Do 3-2-1 x mile(s) @ T off of short jogging rests. Do a long tempo (6-10 miles) @ MP in your long run once every 3-5 weeks instead of the weekday tempo. Do strides twice a week (day before your two workouts) at the end of an easy run for turnover. So if you have a 6 mile easy run the day before a workout, do 5 easy & then do 4 x :20 hard, :40 easy in the last mile.

My guess is that the 400s are pretty much at 5k pace & you're never really touching anything faster and that the tempos might be too slow or too short to increase endurance.

How much do you weigh? How's your diet? How's you sleep and recovery in general?

Changing up for better training protocols is great but being light, eating well, and getting the rest you need is something that's worth a whole lot more than the tiny difference between swapping 400's for 1000's.

IMO mile repeats at 5k pace will take too much out of you. Stick to 5x1000 for your longest 5k pace reps