Is CV training superior to traditional VO2 max training?

Long term its the volume, trainings hours per week, which is the most important factor to set VO2max.

However, VO2max can also be increased with high intensity training. There are different opinions outside. Most people think intervals above 90 to 100% of VO2max are good to go. This is the range from 10k to 3k/1600m race pace.

I think as lower the %Vo2max to increase your VO2max as better it is. -> less demanding

Science literature talks about high-intensity intervals (>90%VO2max) from 3-5 minutes (so called short intervals). However i do believe that 1 or 2 minutes intervals have also there significance, even it is known that it takes up to 2 minutes to reach the designated VO2 above 90%.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

I think it is. Traditional long intervals at 3k-5k pace are just too taxing for average people to recover from. If you want to work out at these paces, stick to 400s and 600s. CV reps should be between 2 and 6 minutes.

There is absolutely no need for CV ( approximately 10 k race pace) in training .

To reach your individual maxO2 is a total concept of the 3 main factors for the best result.

You are right that 400/600 s are perfect for maxVO2 reps, but they should mostly stay at 5 k race pace , not faster. It`s enough to improve continuously.

The main purpose with the 400/600s at 5 k race pace is to make the energy process at that pace

more energy efficient and contrary to the common perception that they are mainly done to raise the individual maxO2.

- COACH J.S -

You need to train various paces for a whole host of reasons.

A point that Tom makes about the CV as it applies to high school coaches and he is quite right. Why would you train 5k pace when you are racing that every week and in some cases twice a week.

It’s about engaging free sat twitch fibers aerobically without taking on acidity which can be trained separately.

VO2 workouts are valuable but not when you are doing them all the time in racing. Some say b/c of muscle memory but I think that is bs.

CV tends to work the LT more than anything doesn’t it? I tend to substitute it for 20 minute tempo sessions and stuff like that.

It's all about perdiozidation of the training schedule IMO. If you burn it hot with actual Vo2max intervals (800m-1km) all season while racing 5km/10km you're probably going to peak within in like 6-8 weeks and then it's all downhill from there until you re-establish aerobic base. However if you're coming off LT work, long runs and higher consistent mileage for several months first you have a decent aerobic base. From there (early season and between harder races) CV makes sense most of the time (as well as in tapering phase...depending on the runner and what event they are peaking for) over pure Vo2max intervals because there is less chance for overtraining. It's easier mentally because it's not as painful and it's slightly easier on the body with impact force and muscle strain at a slightly slower pace and not 100% max HR....so it can be sustained longer and more months out of the year. Plus if you're working right at an inflection point of lactate management and clearance you can increase Velocity at LT potential. It's a good overall running economy stimulus specific for 1500m-marathon runners. Early season I'd call CV workouts "pre-Vo2max" kind of workouts because you'd be doing something pretty high volume like 8-10 x 1km at around current 10km-15km pace with a pretty short rest. 90% kind of effort and manageable. It preps the body for "pure-Vo2max" or actual Vo2max workouts later in the season...which would then transform into something more like 6 x 1km at 5km goal pace with a 2-min rest. To always be working around LT (slightly above and slightly faster) is always a good goal and it can be sustained for a lot of the year.

CopperRunner wrote:

CV tends to work the LT more than anything doesn’t it? I tend to substitute it for 20 minute tempo sessions and stuff like that.

+1

Thanks, Sage. That helped

Sage makes some good points.

However, I have seen numerous runners do 2 or 3 VO2 max sessions and quickly lose fitness. For most runners, it doesn't work for that 6-8 week range that it is supposed to.

I just spent a lot of time reading through training threads about guys who managed 13:50-14:30 in the 5k, and almost everyone did shockingly little work at 5k pace. They got fit running 80-110 mpw, huge volumes of threshold and sub-threshold work, and a lot of volume around 8k-15k pace (what we popularly call CV nowadays). Even the "sharpener" workouts were stuff like a couple of threshold 2 miles, hard 1ks, and some 400s at mile pace. I don't think I saw a single "4x1 mile at 5k pace" or "6-8x1k at 3k-5k pace" session in there. Most guys also seemed to perform better in their second or third attempt at a quick 5k, or they did an off-distance tuneup 1 to 3 weeks out. This makes sense considering the lack of "specific" work they had done, but it generally only took one rust-buster to pop a huge PR for most of these runners.

I think most sub-elite athletes (and some elites too) can only hold their peak for 2 to 4 weeks. Banging out goal pace or even date pace long reps 6-8 weeks out is a recipe for burnout. I still believe you can do workouts like 20x400 at 10k down to 5k pace year-round, but those traditional 3-5 minute VO2 max intervals should be on the shelf until less than a month before your goal race, and even then might not be at all necessary. Personally, at that point in the training block, I would rather just run a few races and get an accurate estimation of my fitness.

the above makes a lot sense when you think about how fast everyone ran at the BU opener coming off of XC training.

that summarizes the matter well. many just train too fast (i did that, unfortunately). especially if you calculate with distance instead of duration. if a fast runner runs 5x1k as a classic vo2 workout, then the total duration is significantly shorter, compared to what a slower runner does, who copied this classic session. he then endangers the training success, and often he also completes 2 or 3 workouts per week and has too few recovery time available, measured on the total duration of his training intensity.

You have to look at the full context of the Training Plan and the balance of other workouts (and not just isolate it down to "2 or 3 VO2max sessions causing something"). Yes, generally for most distance runners they can race really well (and very close to 100% or PR fitness early season) off of pure high mileage base work, mostly LT work, some CV sessions and then some speedier stuff like 400m repeats (I like to cal "Economy Workouts")...stuff like 12-20x 400m at faster than 3km pace with like a 1:30 rest. And Strides. But you have to consider you are technically "working" benefits for the Vo2max and LT with all these workouts. Sure 90%-94% of Max HR in a CV session is still below Vo2max zone, but it is still working on lactate clearance and running economy around Velocity at Vo2max. The spectrums blend into each other. 400m Repeats with enough rest can still spike the HR over 95% the last 100m of a 400m rep and it is also working on Lactate Clearance, Heart stroke volume and Running Economy at a Velocity slightly faster than VO2MAX (i.e. 3km goal pace etc.). The recovery needs to be appropriate though as if you start blasting 400m reps at 1500m race pace with a short rest you're going too anaerobic. If anything, the thing that gets runners into trouble is: 1. When they run VO2Max workouts too hard. Like "fastest possible average" for a 6 x 1km repeat session or 4 x 1-mile. How many runners do workouts like that and actually run faster than 5km pace? Probably too many. Better to go with current 5km race pace on those and keep the rest in the 2-3-min range. The issue is that true Vo2max intervals can cause a lot of skeletal muscular fatigue (neuromuscular fatigue) as well as being mentally hard and painful. Then you can also flood yourself with lactate and be running with bad form and breaking down at the end of the workout. Do that too much (combined with other Speed workouts and probably actually racing 5km etc) and you can quickly peak and overtrain within a matter of weeks. The time frame can vary (I just threw out 6-8 weeks). We did it a couple times under Rojo at Cornell. I ran my 5km PR in basically the first meet of the indoor track meet of season off of base and then slowly lost fitness by the time the rest of the indoor season rolled around and going into outdoors. [On the otherhand Rojo also coached me to a conference title in the 10km in outdoors, an NCAA qualifier in XC and an OTQ marathon though!] So it is a tricky balance when you have a full season of races as well. Yes, then VO2MAX (pure Vo2max should be used more sparingly) because you are essentially putting in a hard Vo2max effort every time you race an all-out 5km.

A long distance runner doesn`t need so called CV pace in training ( approximately 10 k race pace) - It`s too fast to make the lactate threshold process to improve maximally , and it`s too slow to make the energy process for 5 k race pace to be efficient enough. So, there is no need for it .... )). Then it comes down to maxVO2 training at 5 k race pace backed up with LT training at approximately half marathon race pace . To avoid too much training close to maxVO2 ( 5 k race pace ) when you have a 5 k race the same week , it`s easy to just avoid the usual 400/ 600s at 5K race pace that week and replacing with LT intervals instead. There is absolutely no need for periodising in training, just a need to use the right components based on what the current and upcoming next few weeks have as a requirement.

CV is mostly a threshold workout that gives a little tickle to VO2 max. It really depends on who you’re as to it’s usage imo.

CV is great for high schoolers. Why? Because they race a ton which already is working their vo2 max. Therefore their workouts should focus more on threshold. CV works well in season because it feels like a harder workout but is really working their threshold more.

In contrast college and pro runners race much less. Therefore they can do more pure vo2 max workouts without over working the system.

This is why I think Tinmans system is perfect for high school. However it does not adapt well to the next levels. At the next level there needs to be high volume weeks, pure high volume threshold workouts, pure vo2 max sessions, and a sprinkling of racing.

loving this thread.

always spend a lot of time thinking about how to solve the riddle of peaking for high school season. 5 dual meets, 4 or 5 invites, league championship, state qualifier, states....and then possibly beyond.

And then you have the kids who come in with great base and threshold established, versus the kids who come in after a summer of NOTHING. One needs something much different than the other.

And flooding your body unnecessarily with too much lactate (10.0mmol+) is going to erode you mitochondrial density to the point, as you said, where now you need to start going back to brass tacks and developing your aerobic system rather than, i think what you recommendation is, to blend facets of training in the periodization. That way you are layering or simply never moving too far away from the systems as you progress them.

VO2 max workouts (6x8-1000m with 2:00 rest, etc) are the sirens song of workouts when you're feeling good; they are the absolute death of your seasons when you're coming off bad races and looking for quick results.

shirtboy2021 wrote:

And flooding your body unnecessarily with too much lactate (10.0mmol+) is going to erode you mitochondrial density.

This is true

otter wrote:

shirtboy2021 wrote:

And flooding your body unnecessarily with too much lactate (10.0mmol+) is going to erode you mitochondrial density.

This is true

Really? Why?

Lactate ions aren't the enemy, nor are Hydrogen ions. The Mitochondrion has its own way of moving H+

Find a different culprit for diminished Mitochondrial density, such as reduction in training volume and/or intensity.

If it was high Lactate levels, then hill sessions or fast 400s would be the worst training you could do.

shirtboy2021 wrote:

And flooding your body unnecessarily with too much lactate (10.0mmol+) is going to erode you mitochondrial density

Then why did it work for guys like Frank Shorter who did mostly very high, easy-pace volume, plus nothing but 20 x 400's, 30 x 400's and not much in between? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to mesh the two concepts.

Back to what I wrote earlier about Running Economy (think Jack Daniels style "rep" workouts etc), if you are doing big volume 400m repeat workouts like 20 x 400m then the goal isn't high lactate levels (anaerobic stimulus) work usually. Do 20 x 400m at 3km pace with a 1:30 rest and it's actually more of a Threshold stimulus/effort overall the legs and FT muscle fibers get the benefit of Running Economy boost at faster than Velocity at Vo2max. Sure, maybe the HR spikes over 95% and lactate starts to rise in the last 100m of the 400m reps...but it will quickly clear and you can avoid really going anaerobic during the workout. The variables (Speed/Intensity and Rest/Recovery) are key here as they change the dynamic of the workout. Same can be set for high intensity hill reps. If you manipulate the recovery and intensity just right you don't have to ride high lactate levels (and you certainly don't want to early season and during base phase...esp as a 5km-marathon runner). But you can still get a god speed and strength stimulus which generally boosts running economy and all threshold levels.

GettingFasterDude wrote:

shirtboy2021 wrote:

And flooding your body unnecessarily with too much lactate (10.0mmol+) is going to erode you mitochondrial density

Then why did it work for guys like Frank Shorter who did mostly very high, easy-pace volume, plus nothing but 20 x 400's, 30 x 400's and not much in between? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to mesh the two concepts.