At what point is "run as a pack" irrelevant?

pack question wrote:

Coaches say this all the time, but if the top-5 has like a 3:00 min split, this is a stupid strategy, right? To "run as a pack" the #5 would be gassed in the first mile and the my 1 and 2 would have to slow down so much to split the difference they wouldn't even be racing. Seems like "every man for himself" is the only strategy that would work.

I've got a championship coming up next week and am looking for ideas. Serious replies only.

Unless it's a duel meet against a weak team, no one does what you suggested. In a competitive race, the kids will spread out. If some of the kids have similar ability, they might run together.

This is something that should have been developed in practice & workouts all season.

If you have a 3 min gap between your Letesenbet and #5 then pack running isn’t ideal.

Everyone needs to compete at the highest level they can. Maybe #1 races to win, 2&3 run together, 4-7 run as a pack.

Work with what you have.

helpful advice wrote:

This is something that should have been developed in practice & workouts all season.

If you have a 3 min gap between your Letesenbet and #5 then pack running isn’t ideal.

Everyone needs to compete at the highest level they can. Maybe #1 races to win, 2&3 run together, 4-7 run as a pack.

Work with what you have.

We’ve been working on it. We’ve gone from a 4:00 min gap to a 3:00 min gap. They are all moving as fast as they possibly can.

Agree with the poster above. A pack strategy works well when you have the right group/ability levels. If the spread is too wide then obviously that strategy fails. The big takeaway from a pack mentality is that you are all supporting each other and pushing each other to do the best you can.

Running as a pack is something coaches make up so that they have something to tell their athletes. Some coaches feel like they're not really coaching unless they have a clipboard and give a long pre-race talk, as though XC were football and tactics were really important.

If people are really close in ability, they might run faster together, as everyone might feel that they're getting pulled by someone else. But that happens naturally. When coaches force athletes to run together when they otherwise wouldn't, then they run at the pace of the slowest athlete.

800 dude wrote:

Running as a pack is something coaches make up so that they have something to tell their athletes. Some coaches feel like they're not really coaching unless they have a clipboard and give a long pre-race talk, as though XC were football and tactics were really important.

If people are really close in ability, they might run faster together, as everyone might feel that they're getting pulled by someone else. But that happens naturally. When coaches force athletes to run together when they otherwise wouldn't, then they run at the pace of the slowest athlete.

For a competitive race, the coach could tell his entire team team to run in a pack but they won't. It would go against human nature. I was the best runner on my HS team and I would have ignored such a strategy. That strategy would be a bad tempo run for the best runners on the team.

Yeah, to have the #1 Runner hold back to run with the #5 just doesn't make sense.

I think when you see a team "run as a pack" it's the result of that team having X number of runners of very similar ability, you notice that in good teams because they are all up front. You wouldn't say the really bad teams that make up the bottom 1/3 of the race are "running as a pack" you'd just say they all suck.

In high school our team had a top 5 split of 10-20 seconds. Our best split was 4 seconds. We ran in the 15:30-16:00 range for 3 miles in Illinois and ended up top 10 at state a couple of times. We didn't have any All-State caliber runners so it made sense for us to run in a group.

You said it was a "championship" which I assume to be some sort of state group, sectional etc. If it's possible for individuals to qualify to move on to the next level of competition, then running as a pack makes no sense at all.

The only way it would make sense is if your team can finish 1-7 with the top guys not having to go all out.

The biggest challenge is finding ways for number 4 and 5 to push the middle of the race. Part of this strategy might be for that. If your fifth can push the middle of the race and they are well trained there is a good chance they are not going to let many pass them towards the end when family, coaches and teammates are cheering them on.

I don’t use this strategy often but I have seen athletes on other teams lose it when a pack of 3-5 from one team pass them.

I certainly would never have my number 1 or 2 waiting around for our 5th runner.

Dr Obvious wrote:

In high school our team had a top 5 split of 10-20 seconds. Our best split was 4 seconds. We ran in the 15:30-16:00 range for 3 miles in Illinois and ended up top 10 at state a couple of times. We didn't have any All-State caliber runners so it made sense for us to run in a group.

Are you saying that all of you were so close in your ability that when you all were racing- all out, you were within 20 seconds? If so, that's great to have that many good runners.

Or are you saying that the top guys held back and didn't run as fast as they could? If so, that makes zero sense.

Half the field in the Men's 1500m at Rio Olympics should have asked this question.

Did none of you see NAU top 4 run as a pack at NCAAs? And Newbury Park top 4 running as a pack? These are the absolute best teams. Of course the runners have to be somewhat equal. And they are training to do this.

pack question wrote:

Coaches say this all the time, but if the top-5 has like a 3:00 min split, this is a stupid strategy, right? To "run as a pack" the #5 would be gassed in the first mile and the my 1 and 2 would have to slow down so much to split the difference they wouldn't even be racing. Seems like "every man for himself" is the only strategy that would work.

I've got a championship coming up next week and am looking for ideas. Serious replies only.

Know your fitness and play your strengths - and have a good sense of these for your competitors.

I am guessing you're running 1500m.

If the pack is too slow, keep them honest and surge - most likely someone will follow. If you're a contender, provided you're not pacing suicidaly, sorting the wheat from the chaff benefits you.

There's mental and modest wind resistance benefit being in the pack... and risk... if you're a kicker and the race pace is your pace, I'd hang off the frontrunner's right shoulder and go hard a bit before others do. A lot of folks go ballistic on the bend, you can catch'em napping if you go a before - provided you can hold it without acidosis.

There is reaction time advantage being first to go hard for home - can be the difference between podium and also-ran.

As a kicker... and in many races, I regretted not kicking sooner. Usually felt I finished with too much in the tank. Collapsing immediately on the infield is a good sign.

Help me out. Does “run as a pack” actually mean the lead runner should slow down, or does it really mean everyone else should stay with the lead runner as long as possible?

Ultimately, I assume the goal has to be that 4-5 gain more positions in the field than 1-2 lose.

knees getting old wrote:

Help me out. Does “run as a pack” actually mean the lead runner should slow down, or does it really mean everyone else should stay with the lead runner as long as possible?

Ultimately, I assume the goal has to be that 4-5 gain more positions in the field than 1-2 lose.

To complete that thought, does “run as a pack” necessarily accept that the number 1 runner will run a slower time, or is it just a mind trick to see if everyone else can run faster?

knees getting old wrote:

knees getting old wrote:

Help me out. Does “run as a pack” actually mean the lead runner should slow down, or does it really mean everyone else should stay with the lead runner as long as possible?

Ultimately, I assume the goal has to be that 4-5 gain more positions in the field than 1-2 lose.

To complete that thought, does “run as a pack” necessarily accept that the number 1 runner will run a slower time, or is it just a mind trick to see if everyone else can run faster?

Ideally it is supposed to give you confidence because you are running next to one or more of your teammates which you grind out hard workouts with every weak.

The athletes must know that they are hurting their teammates if they slow down. It is the lagging runners job to surge and run with the teammate ahead of him.

It was a bit of both. I was the #1 guy but I was coming off mono and my coach wanted me to not go all out in races early in the season. We had two guys in the top 5 who were brand new to cross country who were bad at pacing, so the coach had us pack together so they could pace better. By the end of the year I could go all out so our splits worsened but we still had a 25 second split at state.

So I gave up a few places to help our 4-5 guys gain more. Plus it was cool to have 4-5 guys running side by side. It’s a confidence booster to have your whole team together. But yes, the guys have to be somewhat close to begin with.

It depends on the ability if the seven runners on each team.

1. NBP runs in two packs. Top four and then 5-7(more or less). The front four can’t hold back to try and help 5-7 , but 5-7 help themselves out. All team pack running does not workout because there is to big of a difference between top 4 and 5-7.

2. In 2019 Great Oak had the pack running down to a science. Their 1-5 were 10 seconds apart at NXN’s. This is probably the pack running your talking about. GO’s top 7 were close in times so pack running was perfected as your asking about.

3. The last one pack running is not possible. NBP 2019 their number 1 and 2 were so much better than their 3-7. It would have been illogical to try and run as a pack. Their number 1 and 2 would lose to many places trying to be “team” runners.

These are basically the scenarios that every X-country team has.

I chose those three teams because it shows when a team can and can’t pack run to help it win at a national level,

This can be applied to any level of X-country racing.