Is this sub-3 marathon training plan wacky?How wacky?

Doing a long run and some long tempos at roughly MGP seems good (since this is sort of something everyone does), but I'm a little skeptical about doing 800s at 5k pace every single week.

At the end of the day, you're not going to run your optimal marathon running three days a week. If you are going to try anyway, I guess you can run a bit harder on the days you do run (like this program). Maybe it makes sense to mix up the workouts though (don't just rigidly do MGP on 'tempo' days and 5k pace on 'interval' days).

Here we look down on shift work. It is for the shifty! None but ivy league blue bloods here!

Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I think I’m going to try it but mix up the speed work. Given the trade off between minimize days training and minimizing marathon time, the three day training plan seems a good way to try for a decent time without the expectations of a full buildup.

Ivy League ER doc, but I don’t mind the blue collar term :)

cherrybomb wrote:

This plan is seductive for the three workouts/runs a week approach - for a shiftworker/parent where it is hard to run every day, this seems like a magic approach.

Has anyone tried it? What are the red flags? Modifications you’d make? I’ve run 3:09 and 3:10 (the last one when unknowingly pregnant) and now (not pregnant) a sub-3 is still on my kill list but can’t make running every day a reality.

https://bridgerridgerun.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/how-to-run-a-3-hour-marathon-a-just-enough-training-approach/

As someone with a long-term goal of breaking 3, getting the 5k and 10k down should help my other times (13.1 and 26.2).

As a veteran of dozens of marathons over the years, ranging from 2:40 to 4:20 (most recently 3:07 at age 58), I think the plan is reasonable IF you have the genetic talent.

Your previous times speak to your talent, especially if your training mileage was low. Still, if this plan is MUCH less mileage than what you were running for the 3:09, then it will be very tough to go sub-3. Well, it will be very difficult to actually run the prescribed pace/distances. If you can, then, yeah 2:59 would be doable!

Generally, I don't like training at marathon pace, and I think there would be more benefit to making the "Day 1" workouts a little faster and shorter. That is, a relaxed warmup of 2 or 3 miles, then 4 to 5 miles at maybe 10-mile race pace, then a few easy miles. On the other hand, the author calls "6:40" MP pace, so that's already a lot faster than 6:50 (what I would call 3-hour marathon pace).

I'll add that the plan's Week 10 "Day 1" calls for TEN MILES at 6:40 pace, which is a heckuva run! The last time I went sub-3 (2:56 in my mid-40s), there was NO WAY I could run that pace for that long on a solo training run.

But I'll also add that at super low mileage, training paces get kinda mixed up. Actual race-day marathon pace would be slower than when "fully trained," plus with low mileage, you're better rested for each run. At age 57, I adopted a similar plan as this one (three running days a week, never consecutive days), and could run 15 miles at marathon pace (but that was only 7:52/mile -- race day I ran 3:26:23).

For "Day 2" I like the 800m repeats at 5K pace. But, wow, I've never managed more than 8 of them (usually only 6). The plan maxes at 10. Still, it targets your VO2max, helps your running form, and makes marathon pace seem "slow." My best marathons were always when I was equally trained for 5K racing.

The "Day 3" long runs are the key. Again, I never target MP during training. And I never worry about pace during long runs, just distance (18-23 miles), but if you can follow the plan's inclusion of MP pace, that will certainly boost your confidence. One thing I would change, though, is to progress the distance on ALTERNATE weeks. Like, one week 18 miles, the next 16, the next 20, back down to 18, or the like. Three or four weeks from Marathon Day, I include a 23-miler, even if I have to walk some near the end.

I've also tried one-day-a-week training: only a single long run and six days off. I never broke 3 hours with THAT plan. Maybe 3:40 or so back in my 20s, but the plan was only 8 weeks long (7 runs total). Ha! Good luck.

My wife and her friend tried a 3 or 4 day a week plan a number of years ago. The missus was a 1:25 half marathoner at the time. She ended up at 3:09 - with a goal time of 3 flat - hit the wall at 22 miles.

The problem was lack of muscular conditioning in the legs. Without a reasonable weekly volume your legs can't take the pounding over those last few miles. Weekly volume is important.

Ran my first marathon using this "just enough" plan, ended up with a 3:01. I chose it because, to that point, I thought I was an injury prone runner, with limited available time. As has been said above, I think the mileage volume is a problem. I maxed out at around 45-50m for a couple of weeks, but probably averaged only 30-35mpw. On the start line I felt pretty battered, and had extended my taper due to a number of niggling injuries that I was just "running through". First half of the race was fine but I started to slow at around 18-19m, and couldn't quite maintain the pace I needed for the sub-3.

Second marathon I went more conventional with my training plan, using Stryd and their built in (Hanson-based) plans. Volume was much higher, maxing out at just under 70 miles, easily averaging in the 50s, running 6 days out of 7. Managed a 2:52, but my marathon experience was very different. Feeling very much in control throughout, never out of breath, even pacing, and no wall to speak of. In fact, I could have finished faster were it not for cramping calves! I put this down to the increased mileage/aerobic capacity achieved by running the additional miles/sessions. All in all, a much better overall experience.

That plan peaks at around 30 mpw and averages a lot less. You would need either a lot of natural talent or a history of higher mileage to run sub 3 off that which kind of means it's not the plan that's delivering the result it's just putting the icing on it. If you are only going to do 3 runs a week then you need to make sure you don't waste any. The 1 hour MP runs are the most important, they are hands down the single best regular marathon training run. The long run is over rated generally, your overall volume and consistency is much more important, but in a 3 day plan that has little mileage if your going to run then run long. The Yassoo 800's are a waste of a day, why would you do hard 800m repeats as one third of your training effort for a marathon? You would be much better doing another 1 hour MP run or another long run to get the miles up, or alternate them week to week.

I’m currently training for a marathon with a goal of 2:50. I’m only doing 3 days a week as well.

The only difference in my progression is that I am alternating between five workouts:

Easy LR

LR with MP

LT intervals

Vo2max intervals

Hills/speed work

No easy days because I just take those off. I’m a teacher who is on his feet all week, and I also have three kids.

I don’t do the same workouts week in and week out. For instance, my LT intervals early in the buildup might be 8 x 3:00, but closer to the race I’ll be doing 6 x 5:00.

About 5 weeks out from the race when I’m at peak mileage, I’m at about 55mpw, but that’s in three runs.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

I am alternating between five workouts:

Easy LR

LR with MP

LT intervals

Vo2max intervals

Hills/speed work

About 5 weeks out from the race when I’m at peak mileage, I’m at about 55mpw, but that’s in three runs.

Kenny, any chance you could start a thread and post your training progress and results? I'm fascinated by low mileage and/or low frequency training, and yours looks like an excellent plan. Thanks!

You are not running more days than you are. Why even set a time goal?

As far as if it can work, sure if you have good genes- if you are blessed as a runner and have kept a fit body type (i.e. not put on weight) I guess there's no reason it shouldn't.

This doesn't look like something that was created by a real coach. It looks like something created by an unqualified runner who copy and pasted 3 workouts they like.

1.) Yasso 800's are an indicator workout, to run them every week for 14 weeks is an injury or burnout waiting to happen.

2.) Nowhere near enough weekly volume for the number of hard miles you're doing. You're doing about 35-50mpw with well over half of that being at MP or faster

3.) Workouts bump up incredibly fast in a short amount of time. It'd be one thing if you were just increasing the tempo like that, or the yasso's, but when you are bumping all three workouts up that drastically at the same time its a recipe for injury.

A 3hr marathon is a really awesome goal, but to do it on only 3 days a week you are relying way more on your natural talent and prior years of experience than on the training plan to get you there. And to do it on this plan you're mostly hopping you're bullet proof. Good luck, this plan is trash.

The Yasso 800's are good for running economy and for making race pace feel easy, but they are not necessary for marathon training.

Allen,

Since you're interested in low mileage plans.

M47.

Ran four 3:13 marathons recently(2 in 2019 and 2 in 2021).

Ran a HM in 1:29:30 in 2019 and this weekend a HM in 1:26:46.

On three runs a week. By necessity, since adding a fourth run results in injury.

1. Tuesday recovery run 4 miles, easy pace. I increased this to 6-7 miles the last months.

2. Thursday tempo run, starting with 2 miles at tempo pace, ending with 8-9 miles at tempo pace.

When I start my 3 month training marathon plan, tempo pace is faster than MP; by the end tempo pace becomes my marathon pace.

3. Sunday long run increasing from 8 tot 20 miles. I run these very easy (when running with a slow running buddy) during the first half of the three months. Up tot 8 miles - 10 min/mile.

When the long run gets longer, I no longer run them with my slow friend because they would take too much time. Then I run up to 20 miles at a moderate pace, 40 sec/mile slower than marathon pace.

Longest run 20-21 miles 4 weeks before the marathon, and a HM at MP 14 days before race day.

real low mileage guy wrote:

Ran four 3:13 marathons recently(2 in 2019 and 2 in 2021).

Ran a HM in 1:29:30 in 2019 and this weekend a HM in 1:26:46.

On three runs a week.

Thanks! Good results, and congrats on the 1:26. Impressive in your late 40s, and light volume. In the past I was drawn to low mileage training mainly due to time constraints (and/or poor time management skills). Now, like you, I'm limited due to injury concerns.

I mentioned in my previous post that a 3-day-a-week plan netted a 3:26 for me at age 57. I started only 3 months before the marathon, with no base. It had been 14 years since I had run a marathon.

I averaged 18 mpw for the 12 weeks, no workouts, just progression runs (finishing sub-8 pace), and a few long runs (maybe 9:30 pace). The first month was often only one or two runs per week, plus a couple 20-mile bike rides and some kayaking. The next 8 weeks I was more consistent at three runs, never consecutive days.

On marathon day, I trusted my body to intuitively settle into an appropriate pace. First mile was 8:00, second 7:52. Average was 7:52.

The next year, at 58, I used a 9-day cycle that included two workouts (VO2max and LT), a medium-long run, and a long run; the other five days were off or easy. I had great results in spring and summer (5Ks, HM, 15K), then mostly injured for the 10 weeks before my fall marathon. I substituted 40 minutes on elliptical trainer, 3 times a week, and still managed 3:07 on marathon day, even splits. That "age grades" to 2:35 -- better than my PR (2:40 at age 23).

I'm looking to run a marathon with my son in the spring, so trying to come up with a plan. I'll be almost 63, with chronic tendonitis, so mileage is limited.

Hey, don't mean to hijack the good doctor's thread. But all related discussion, yes?

The thing I personally don't like is the MP Tempo Runs. I barely if ever did that pace to get my sub-3. I'd finish off long runs with some miles at that pace or a touch slower/faster. On Marathon Day I had no problem with the pace at all. Not like I was running a ton either (45-55mpw max).

So I would revise the 3 days of workouts to:

-Faster tempo work (HM-type pace) ~ 3-5 miles at 6:15-6:30 pace, break into 2x2 miles if needed

-Steady aerobic run ~ 8 miles at 7:10-7:40 pace (finish strong the last mile or two)

~ Long run on Sunday ~ 12-22 miles, last 4 miles dialing it up to MP or faster.

It might be tempting to turn the second run into intervals like 6x1200m, but if we're talking about pre-req of sub-19 5K I don't think it has to be a grinding workout.

Great plan. Will give it a try and throw in some hills and downhill running too. BQ on 26miles/week no problem, sub3 takes more running at 6:40pace. Thanks for sharing!