We debated it on our podcast this week and now Jonathan Gault has written an article about the topic.
What do you think?
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2020/05/podcast-who-had-the-better-career-ritz-webb-or-hall/
PS. 9 Years ago, people were already asking this.
Hall has 2 American Records still standing, but the best championship performance was 10th in Beijing.
Ritz had the AR in the 5k, and got bronze at the half marathon championships and World XC junior.
Webb has the AR in the mile and won 3 US championships.
Kind of hard but I think it's between Hall and Webb. I think I have to go with Hall.
They basically all have the same career - really good time trialers and US record holders but overtrained to the point of burnout before the big show. I have to go with Webb. He was just too dominant, and his range was all-time (1:43/27:34), too bad he never saved those efforts for the end of the season.
I said this comment on a previous thread and got hate for it.
None WON.
Fast time trials, no WINNING.
In my book, Leo Manzano had a better career then all of them.
shootpost wrote:
I said this comment on a previous thread and got hate for it.
None WON.
Fast time trials, no WINNING.
In my book, Leo Manzano had a better career then all of them.
Good point. You can add Steve Holman to the time chaser as well. Odd how we have had so many that were not really competitive types in running. It’s almost if they Accidentally stumbled onto the sport just do to genetic gift.
Hayduke wrote:
shootpost wrote:
I said this comment on a previous thread and got hate for it.
None WON.
Fast time trials, no WINNING.
In my book, Leo Manzano had a better career then all of them.
Good point. You can add Steve Holman to the time chaser as well. Odd how we have had so many that were not really competitive types in running. It’s almost if they Accidentally stumbled onto the sport just do to genetic gift.
Some people on here think Mo Farah had a meh career because he "only" ran 12:53/26:46. which are a little slower than other greats.
He has 8 WC medals and 4 OLY medals! He WINS!
Leo Manzano stopped being an American runner to me the moment he waved around a Mexican flag after winning Olympic silver. This is about AMERICAN runners only.
You asked who had the best career, not who was the best runner.
If you asked this 10 years ago the answer would have been Webb.
If you asked 5 years ago it would have been Hall.
Today the answer is Ritz.
theweatherman1212 wrote:
Leo Manzano stopped being an American runner to me the moment he waved around a Mexican flag after winning Olympic silver. This is about AMERICAN runners only.
Mexico is in North America.
shootpost wrote:
I said this comment on a previous thread and got hate for it.
None WON.
Fast time trials, no WINNING.
In my book, Leo Manzano had a better career then all of them.
What the hell did Manzano win?
You seem to be obsessed with winning but how come in the Olympics when you lose, you call it winning if you are 2nd or 3rd? Hall was third in Boston one year. Ritz was third at World Half.
According to USATF, Manzano won 2 USATF 1500 titles. Alan Webb won 3.
Webb holds the lifetime edge between the two, 5 to 4..
Look one can argue Manzano had the better career but let's stop acting like he was winning lots of races in Europe or even US titles.
Ritz had the best career.
Hall and Webb both left us wondering what could have been.
Can we all agree that they are several outstanding athletes that blazed a path on how to not manage careers? multiple coaching changes, mental challenges, constant injuries. Ritz is the only one you could credit with longevity and he has to run on the moon to avoid being injured.
Hall was the most successful at moving to longer distances but not successful enough to beat what Ritz and Webb did at shorter distances (5k/10k for ritz, 1500 / mile for webb).
Ritz I think would have gotten it if he didn't move to the marathon. He should have stayed in the 5k/10k range and been a runner who made his move before the final lap, a front running type. His move to the marathon was a poor decision and makes hall look superior, but really Ritz is just competing "out of position" in the wrong event.
Hall's half marathon time and Ritz's half marathon place are impressive, but the half marathon is seen as a secondary race.
My opinion is that Webb gets it because in 2007 for a short amount of time, he was the best 1500 runner in the world. He would lose it if the others medaled in world championships for track or the olympics or maybe even won a major marathon, but since nobody really did well in these major championships, we move to criteria b - who did better at the wrong time. And it's Webb.
I was a junior in hs in 01, I guess the way birthdays fall I'm a couple years younger than the three of them (35 now), but right there close. I remember there being real excitement about all three. Webb probably the biggest at that time with his mile times, kinda captured the attention of the casual fan.
For careers Webb has his AR mile, some us 1500m wins, and an Olympic team. Coming out of high school if you said he wouldn't be competitive on the world level I think most would agree that would be a disappointment.
Hall has the 59:43AR and only sub 2:05 by an American (even though it doesn't count). He ran that half at 24/25 years old and he had me convinced he would be challenging at the the world level for years to come.. Nope. I have no idea of his mental makeup or if he even enjoyed running, but for me he had an incredible gift and just quit. So not a fan of him at this point.
Dathan had some success at all levels. Highschool, then in college team and individual xc champs, pro half marathon and xc bronzes, making Olympic team. He was my least favorite at the time, but he had strung together the better career in my opinion.
dbasarab wrote:My opinion is that Webb gets it because in 2007 for a short amount of time, he was the best 1500 runner in the world. He would lose it if the others medaled in world championships for track or the olympics or maybe even won a major marathon, but since nobody really did well in these major championships, we move to criteria b - who did better at the wrong time. And it's Webb.
idk man. Webb being the "best" in the world in a championship year in which he got 8th seems really weird to me. He just peaked too early. Everyone was timing their peaks for Osaka, he managed to beat a bunch of them while they were still in the meat of their training cycle, and they showed him the door at the WCs.
He was never the best in the world in a race. He might have been the fittest in the world when he ran his AR. That never translated to winning when it mattered in his case.
Good guy, though.
Webb had best single performance but hall or dathan had better long term careers
He did beat Lagat at the US championship though head to head, not time to time. He fell off though. That's important, because it's not his time vs another person's time, it's head to head.
I’m going with Manzano too. Olympic silver medal is better than anything the other three achieved.
This thread has really revealed how mush the three of them underperformed internationally.
US records and US national titles are laughable criteria for judging an international sport.
You take the Webb’s, Hall’s (thyroid drug abuser), and Ritz’s top three performances and put them together, and they still aren’t as good as Olympic silver in the 1500m.
Another vote for Manzano.
Not to mention Lagat and Chelimo.
LetsRun.com wrote:
We debated it on our podcast this week and now Jonathan Gault has written an article about the topic.
What do you think?
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2020/05/ritz-vs-webb-vs-hall-who-was-better-a-pseudo-scientific-breakdown/https://www.letsrun.com/news/2020/05/podcast-who-had-the-better-career-ritz-webb-or-hall/PS. 9 Years ago, people were already asking this.
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4007923
Ritz isn't even in the discussion with Webb or Hall. Ritz shining moment was a world half bronze. Never a player in any major marathon, track world championship or an Olympic Marathon.
I give the nod to Hall since he had a longer-lasting career. He was competitive in several major marathons. Webb and about 2 months where it looked like he might be the best miler in the world and then he crashed out of Worlds. He dominated the US Scene when it was very weak in the mile. If you prime Centro vs Prime Webb, Centro would have won almost every US championship.