You stated the anti-Russia sentiment was due to media propaganda:
I suggested that there may be other causes of anti-Russia sentiment and offered two possibilities: i) their invasion of Ukraine; 2) their committing of war crimes. For me, and many people, either of these are sufficiently convincing reasons to hate Russia.
You doubled down and said it was definitely media propaganda (without offering any proof), and stated that I shouldn't believe something because of lies.
I then tried to clarify what I was being lied to about. I had previously offered several reasons why people may hate Russia, and you said that it wasn't those reasons but was due to media propaganda, and then stated that I shouldn't believe something because of lies. But, if the official narrative is that Russia invaded Ukraine and that Russia's invasion doesn't explain why people hate Russia (because that's due to media propaganda), then what could the big lie be other than that the official narrative is fictitious and that Russia never actually invaded Ukraine. So, I asked if that was the case:
To which you said that wasn't what I was being lied to about. Then you went off on another tangent.
So, let me spell this out for you: people hate Russia because they invaded Ukraine. There doesn't need to be any media propaganda to "whip up hatred of Russia" because Russia whipped up hatred of Russia all on their own by the act of invading Ukraine.
N.B. The war crimes just confirmed that everyone was right to hate Russia.
You honestly are selling the story that anti-Russian feelings only began with the recent invasion?
That how and what our media has told us about this war has nothing to do with anti-Russian feelings?
That the US has not committed far worse and far more war crimes over the past 20 years of invasion and occupation of several nations than Russia has done in the past month?
That many of the stories we are being told are lies.
Sure. Some people have hated Russia for a long time. Like since they blew up a bunch of apartment buildings and blamed it on Chechens. Or, since they supported Ukrainian separatists in blowing up MH17. Others didn't hate Russia until they invaded Ukraine. None of these required media propaganda.
You honestly are selling the story that anti-Russian feelings only began with the recent invasion?
That how and what our media has told us about this war has nothing to do with anti-Russian feelings?
That the US has not committed far worse and far more war crimes over the past 20 years of invasion and occupation of several nations than Russia has done in the past month?
That many of the stories we are being told are lies.
Sure. Some people have hated Russia for a long time. Like since they blew up a bunch of apartment buildings and blamed it on Chechens. Or, since they supported Ukrainian separatists in blowing up MH17. Others didn't hate Russia until they invaded Ukraine. None of these required media propaganda.
Exactly. The notion that all this hate is due to propaganda is a narrative Carmine is pushing, not a fact. He doesn't know what people are thinking. The fact is that Americans and many others around the world bore ill will to Russia because of the invasion long before the recent stories of atrocities.
For my part, all I need to know was that they invaded a foreign country. The feelings of Russians towards Ukraine give me no reason to change my mind regarding Russia being the party in the wrong. But if I were to consider Russia's reasons for invading (as stated by Putin, not by Western Propaganda), I still would consider them to be the guilty party. Russia has no right to declare Ukraine a non-country, and no right to decide to demilitarize and de-nazi Ukraine if Ukraine hasn't been attacking Russia.
Was it media propaganda that whipped up hatred of Russia? Or was it that they launched an unprovoked invasion of the Ukraine and decided to murder and rape a bunch of civilians while they were there that made everyone in the civilized world despise Russia?
Yes it was. It did not start with Ukraine. For decades you were preconditioned to hate them. Some have fallen for it sooner then the other. Hatred is the same, only the hysteria rose to quite another level.
The exact crimes they committed, and they certainly have, are still to be established. All we have at the moment are accusations by defenders, many of those obvious propaganda and mad bitter BS.
In any case, "civilized world" has no right to despise Russia, unles first despising oneself. "Civilized world" outperforms Russia in war crime by orders of magnitude.
"Know it alls" tend to say Russia did not anticipate this and that. I believe the only thing Russia could not anticipate was the level of hypocrisy in average "civilized" citizen.
Was it media propaganda that whipped up hatred of Russia? Or was it that they launched an unprovoked invasion of the Ukraine and decided to murder and rape a bunch of civilians while they were there that made everyone in the civilized world despise Russia?
Yes it was. It did not start with Ukraine. For decades you were preconditioned to hate them. Some have fallen for it sooner then the other. Hatred is the same, only the hysteria rose to quite another level.
The exact crimes they committed, and they certainly have, are still to be established. All we have at the moment are accusations by defenders, many of those obvious propaganda and mad bitter BS.
In any case, "civilized world" has no right to despise Russia, unles first despising oneself. "Civilized world" outperforms Russia in war crime by orders of magnitude.
"Know it alls" tend to say Russia did not anticipate this and that. I believe the only thing Russia could not anticipate was the level of hypocrisy in average "civilized" citizen.
Glad to see that Russia is living down to expectations and justifying widespread, long-standing hatred of Mother Russia by Westerners.
RU was simply beaten in the North. They had to do a wild retreat into Belarus and RU, leaving lots behind and getting ambushed all the way.
In the South Mariopol is still not in RU hands, so there is no land bridge.
On the south shore, UKR anti-ship activity has kept the russians from amphibious landings or easy resupply of the south.
So the east.
RU is moving all its dead-tired, defeated men with their broken equipment to the East to make a last stand. There are no replacements. RU clearly does not trust any other soldiers. so the question is what kind of morale these battle-weary soldiers have, and if their equipment still works.
On the UKR side, they too are exhausted and stressed out and low on equipment. but they are defending their homeland and have the indigenous on their side and NATO is resupplying them.
The question is now what...if RU digs in...hard to see how UKR could mount an offensive to eject RU from UKR. So most likely, there will be two Ukraines...an East Ukraine puppet state and a free West Ukraine. Like the two germanies and two the two koreas.
Pretty much sums it up, though Mariupol is certain to change hands.
The Russian side was repelled, slowed, or defeated in many urban advances elsewhere.
Learning from those mistakes, rather than take heavy losses with street-by-street urban assault of Mariupol, the offensive is siege and attrition. Time will win that battle.
A land bridge to Crimea is essentially already in place, though, as the Russians control sea access to Mariupol and surrounding lands.
The question mark is Odessa. Flipping it landlocks the Ukraine side. For the moment it's foreseeably out of play with the Russian Black Sea fleet blockading the port.
Sure. Some people have hated Russia for a long time. Like since they blew up a bunch of apartment buildings and blamed it on Chechens. Or, since they supported Ukrainian separatists in blowing up MH17. Others didn't hate Russia until they invaded Ukraine. None of these required media propaganda.
Exactly. The notion that all this hate is due to propaganda is a narrative Carmine is pushing, not a fact. He doesn't know what people are thinking. The fact is that Americans and many others around the world bore ill will to Russia because of the invasion long before the recent stories of atrocities.
For my part, all I need to know was that they invaded a foreign country. The feelings of Russians towards Ukraine give me no reason to change my mind regarding Russia being the party in the wrong. But if I were to consider Russia's reasons for invading (as stated by Putin, not by Western Propaganda), I still would consider them to be the guilty party. Russia has no right to declare Ukraine a non-country, and no right to decide to demilitarize and de-nazi Ukraine if Ukraine hasn't been attacking Russia.
American and its allies have had Russia in the cross-hairs for over 70 years.
Stand off in Europe post WWII, cold war, space race, arms race, M.A.D.
Propaganda and censorship has been tool all through that. It is being ramped up now, as is common when America is in or prepares for conflict. Yellow ribbons and flags on pickup trucks, booyah!
In the Gulf War and Iraq War, American companies refused to buy from or sell to Canadians or the French for not joining in "Coalition of the Willing" on a hunt for WMDs. You're with us or against us.
Having put in their place, both countries joined in future NATO invasions of a foreign country - the kind we're OK with.
Like about 30,000 sorties on Libya, or squatting in camps in Afghanistan for two decades, only to hand it over to the Taliban in a week.
The Ukraine is the latest manifestation of long simmering East/East conflict.
The CIA and Western Military have been in the Ukraine preparing it for war for 8 years, training and arming it, but all the while denying NATO membership.
Now at war, the Ukraine has begged for direct support and got none. They are looking like what the Russian's would call "a useful fool" to the West.
We gave them a rifle and slap on the back, and it's "over the top, boys!"
Exactly. The notion that all this hate is due to propaganda is a narrative Carmine is pushing, not a fact. He doesn't know what people are thinking. The fact is that Americans and many others around the world bore ill will to Russia because of the invasion long before the recent stories of atrocities.
For my part, all I need to know was that they invaded a foreign country. The feelings of Russians towards Ukraine give me no reason to change my mind regarding Russia being the party in the wrong. But if I were to consider Russia's reasons for invading (as stated by Putin, not by Western Propaganda), I still would consider them to be the guilty party. Russia has no right to declare Ukraine a non-country, and no right to decide to demilitarize and de-nazi Ukraine if Ukraine hasn't been attacking Russia.
American and its allies have had Russia in the cross-hairs for over 70 years.
Stand off in Europe post WWII, cold war, space race, arms race, M.A.D.
Propaganda and censorship has been tool all through that. It is being ramped up now, as is common when America is in or prepares for conflict. Yellow ribbons and flags on pickup trucks, booyah!
In the Gulf War and Iraq War, American companies refused to buy from or sell to Canadians or the French for not joining in "Coalition of the Willing" on a hunt for WMDs. You're with us or against us.
Having put in their place, both countries joined in future NATO invasions of a foreign country - the kind we're OK with.
Like about 30,000 sorties on Libya, or squatting in camps in Afghanistan for two decades, only to hand it over to the Taliban in a week.
The Ukraine is the latest manifestation of long simmering East/East conflict.
The CIA and Western Military have been in the Ukraine preparing it for war for 8 years, training and arming it, but all the while denying NATO membership.
Now at war, the Ukraine has begged for direct support and got none. They are looking like what the Russian's would call "a useful fool" to the West.
We gave them a rifle and slap on the back, and it's "over the top, boys!"
That isn't responsive to my point. I was addressing what American people believe, which carmine9 complains is all due to propaganda. Your point is the American government's position.
American and its allies have had Russia in the cross-hairs for over 70 years.
Stand off in Europe post WWII, cold war, space race, arms race, M.A.D.
Propaganda and censorship has been tool all through that. It is being ramped up now, as is common when America is in or prepares for conflict. Yellow ribbons and flags on pickup trucks, booyah!
In the Gulf War and Iraq War, American companies refused to buy from or sell to Canadians or the French for not joining in "Coalition of the Willing" on a hunt for WMDs. You're with us or against us.
Having put in their place, both countries joined in future NATO invasions of a foreign country - the kind we're OK with.
Like about 30,000 sorties on Libya, or squatting in camps in Afghanistan for two decades, only to hand it over to the Taliban in a week.
The Ukraine is the latest manifestation of long simmering East/East conflict.
The CIA and Western Military have been in the Ukraine preparing it for war for 8 years, training and arming it, but all the while denying NATO membership.
Now at war, the Ukraine has begged for direct support and got none. They are looking like what the Russian's would call "a useful fool" to the West.
We gave them a rifle and slap on the back, and it's "over the top, boys!"
That isn't responsive to my point. I was addressing what American people believe, which carmine9 complains is all due to propaganda. Your point is the American government's position.
The point is American policy drives public opinion.
News stopped being about news a long time ago.
Propaganda blurs and blends between state, corporations, interest groups, and even online running forums.
People's thoughts are the first battleground.
You are a product of your environment.
The barrage of headlines you read, or do not, phrasing designed to trigger, these dictate what you think, how you vote, the wars you support.
Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media is a 1988 book by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky. It argues that the mass communication media of the U.S. "are effective and powerful ideological institutions...
Yes it was. It did not start with Ukraine. For decades you were preconditioned to hate them. Some have fallen for it sooner then the other. Hatred is the same, only the hysteria rose to quite another level.
The exact crimes they committed, and they certainly have, are still to be established. All we have at the moment are accusations by defenders, many of those obvious propaganda and mad bitter BS.
In any case, "civilized world" has no right to despise Russia, unles first despising oneself. "Civilized world" outperforms Russia in war crime by orders of magnitude.
"Know it alls" tend to say Russia did not anticipate this and that. I believe the only thing Russia could not anticipate was the level of hypocrisy in average "civilized" citizen.
Glad to see that Russia is living down to expectations and justifying widespread, long-standing hatred of Mother Russia by Westerners.
Putin loves the hate, though. No one plays the victim card better or more often than he does. He's been using it for two decades.
The repercussions from the sanctions are going to come back and bite the US & Western Europe in the as*. People think food inflation & inflation in general are bad right now - they haven't seen nothing yet! It'll be a summer of food riots, civil unrest, skyrocketing crime rates, etc, in the good old US of A.
I only read the latest page, and I'm shocked to see nothing by the Appeaser-in-the-room.
Did his masters redirect him elsewhere?
I did see this new line that poor Russia is only being judged harshly for bombing hospitals and torturing people because the mean ole western media is biased against them. That's a pretty funny line.
I only read the latest page, and I'm shocked to see nothing by the Appeaser-in-the-room.
Did his masters redirect him elsewhere?
I did see this new line that poor Russia is only being judged harshly for bombing hospitals and torturing people because the mean ole western media is biased against them. That's a pretty funny line.
He is still here. He is going by ppl ... something. You can tell by his 100 incoherent posts per day.
Here's a new low for Vladimir Putin's monstrous minions -- drone footage shows Russian soldiers opening fire on an unarmed civilian as he was attempting to surrender.
I only read the latest page, and I'm shocked to see nothing by the Appeaser-in-the-room.
Did his masters redirect him elsewhere?
I did see this new line that poor Russia is only being judged harshly for bombing hospitals and torturing people because the mean ole western media is biased against them. That's a pretty funny line.
He is still here. He is going by ppl ... something. You can tell by his 100 incoherent posts per day.
I only read the latest page, and I'm shocked to see nothing by the Appeaser-in-the-room.
Did his masters redirect him elsewhere?
I did see this new line that poor Russia is only being judged harshly for bombing hospitals and torturing people because the mean ole western media is biased against them. That's a pretty funny line.
He is still here. He is going by ppl ... something. You can tell by his 100 incoherent posts per day.
What is unique about this war is how much video and surveillance technology is providing such immediate information about these crimes. No doubt this sort of thing has happened in war more often than anyone would like to accept, but never have we had so much documentation and video evidence, such that authorities can gather evidence even as the war rages.
Politico has a NYT article about the use of satellites in gathering evidence of war crimes
If this Ukraine war is all a secret plan by the liberal world order to get someone else to fight a war against Russia…. Then WOW, a genius bit of statecraft. Get someone else to fight, defeat, and eternally humiliate one of your main geopolitical rivals?? Biden is a God.
American and its allies have had Russia in the cross-hairs for over 70 years.
Stand off in Europe post WWII, cold war, space race, arms race, M.A.D.
Propaganda and censorship has been tool all through that. It is being ramped up now, as is common when America is in or prepares for conflict. Yellow ribbons and flags on pickup trucks, booyah!
In the Gulf War and Iraq War, American companies refused to buy from or sell to Canadians or the French for not joining in "Coalition of the Willing" on a hunt for WMDs. You're with us or against us.
Having put in their place, both countries joined in future NATO invasions of a foreign country - the kind we're OK with.
Like about 30,000 sorties on Libya, or squatting in camps in Afghanistan for two decades, only to hand it over to the Taliban in a week.
The Ukraine is the latest manifestation of long simmering East/East conflict.
The CIA and Western Military have been in the Ukraine preparing it for war for 8 years, training and arming it, but all the while denying NATO membership.
Now at war, the Ukraine has begged for direct support and got none. They are looking like what the Russian's would call "a useful fool" to the West.
We gave them a rifle and slap on the back, and it's "over the top, boys!"
Per my previous post, just an incredible bit of geopolitical scheming by the woke libs to get someone else to destroy Russian legitimacy at the cost of a few billion in arms. Genius.
Per my previous post, just an incredible bit of geopolitical scheming by the woke libs to get someone else to destroy Russian legitimacy at the cost of a few billion in arms. Genius.
Appeal to ridicule (also called appeal to mockery, ad absurdo, or the horse laugh) is an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worthy of serious considera...
