Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

The answer is staring you in the face - you have assumptions about training that are wrong/imprecise.

Congratulations, that's awesome.

Keep it up.

I'm enjoying this thread immensely! I'm also starting to understand training with this approach to lower mileage more.

However, I'd really appreciate some opinions on what would be the most time-efficient training for a busy middle age jogger who only has 2 hours a week to put aside for running. I know it's not even close to an ideal amount of time to devote to getting faster. But with my other time commitments, it's the max I've been able to do for about the last year. And I don't see it changing any time soon. I do several short resistance training workouts per week.

I have an hour to 90 minutes available on Sunday and then about 30 minutes to sometimes an hour open on Wednesday. What I've done the last 3 months is this:

-Sunday: Jog 60-90 minutes. All nose-breathing, and slowly enough that it's usually around 90-97% of my LTHR.

-Wednesday: Jog 30 minutes. Also nose-breathing. Averaging above LTHR about once per month. The other runs are usually around 90-97% of my LTHR, like the other day.

I've been following this post for quite a while, but haven't posted anything till now.
I've not seen Sirpoc's training on Strava, but on page one of this thread, I believe he mentioned that Lactate Threshold (LT) is not a pace, but rather a state (which is very true). He then stated that the 25x400 session could be run at a faster pace (approx. 10K?) while remaining at LT than could the 2K reps. If he's been doing the typical 400s workout done within the Norwegian Method, he's probably running within 10-15 sec/mile of what he held for 5K. And, with the great aerobic focus/development of this training method, he's likely to stay more aerobic late into the race, and therefore able to pick up the pace and use the speed he naturally possesses, whatever that level is. Speed through Strength, so to speak.
Also, with this type of training, he's not going to be beat up going into competition, which is often the case with traditional 5K training. It's a lot easier to "go to the well" if you're not overcooked from too much anaerobic training. I know this all too well....

Really well explained. Thank you. The only thing I would add, sirpoc hasn't done 400 repeats for probably 7-8 months. Maybe even very shortly after this thread started. To his *fast* set for the week is around the 12-15k pace for the the 1k repeats. I think the fastest I've seen him complete this in is 3:24 average. So this is absolutely the maximum pace he ever runs in training, or did until now. So, as you say, this is still quite way outside 5k pace and thank you for the explanation. I think this thread has shown me , for the most part there is no real value to 5k pace stuff if you get the rest right.

Thanks! This summer/fall should be a lot of fun. NYC Marathon not in the cards until 2025, so I can ditch the long runs (that I'm doing for Boston) and add in the hills. Then some more race-specific stuff later.

What is sirpocs longest run and pace of regular runs?

90 minutes, circa 4:45 min/k

Because he's not mid-talent, he's genetically very gifted as his cycling and recent running progression show. Genuinely mid-talented people in their 40s aren't going to break 16 no matter what training they do. (With the possible exception of insane mental training that might get them under 16 in all-out berserker mode but then make them drop dead.)

I think the talk about muscle fibres is highly relevant.

It seems to me that Sirpoc is very ST. He does not do strides, or any faster work, simply because his muscle physiology does not need it. He is getting in a lot of sub threshold work, and because of his ST, he finds this volume easy and recovers very quickly. In other words, he has found a method that is optimal for him.

The big question is, how does this method work for runners whose muscle physiology is more balanced, or more speed oriented? I suspect it will work up to a point. But others may need to include strides and some faster stuff.

There are now many from this thread following this training method. It will be interesting to hear from others, in due course, on their progress. it will also be interesting to hear about their progress in events longer than 5k.

I’m following the basic structure of this system, albeit slightly different as I still include 90-120 minute long run in addition to the 2 sub T sessions( fwiw I am training for a half). I do feel the slower paces of T work and the very easy recovery runs leave the legs feeling a little flat. I’ve added short hill sprints on Mondays (6-8x 8-12 seconds) and strides (8-10) following a Saturday recovery run. This has left me feeling like a I have a little more pop in the legs than previously. I’m sure some may argue that adding these may lead to overcooking a bit but so far it is working for me. Just my 2 cents and curious if anyone else has experimented with basic speed development as part of this program.

Bumping for 1/2 marathon training--I like these last two posts. For the half I'd personally do 20-30 minutes of Sub-T on Tues and Thurs, easy days Mon, Wed, Fri, LR Saturday, recovery if needed Sunday.

Very useful post in terms of figuring out periodizing it and knowing when to re-test. Thank you!

Those guys are true trolls, even worse than JS. JS is misguided and gives bad advice but he at least gives advice.

This thread gives me hope.
In theory, if you coach slower runners, you could make a 30-min. 5k hobbyjogger a 24-minute decent rec runner within a few months using the same modularization of this training.

I'm surprised RW or Reddit/r/AdvancedRunning or even r/ARTC hasn't really touched this thread too much.

Intuitively that all makes sense to me. May just be that it took a lot of time and training in general (Norwegian style or not) to make that skill transition, or maybe this specific training better suited his talent/training background in that regard, or maybe some combination of factors.

I do think that there's an underrated aspect of running "relaxed" in workouts, beyond just getting more training in, that this Norwegian style basically forces people into while something more "conventional" like Daniels training doesn't necessarily do well. We think of that mostly in terms of not overcooking things metabolically (i.e. staying under the lactate threshold), but I think there's a neuromuscular aspect to it as well. To race well we need the skill of running relaxed and economically, which probably isn't trained well if we are straining at the limit of our ability in really hard intervals. Even if we are running something at a "race pace", if our biomechanics are strained we may not be training a style of running that is sustainable in an actual race. Doing a bunch of relatively chill tempo intervals gives us just enough stress to practice efficient biomechanics at fast paces while not being so stressful that it's hard to run smoothly. In a way, this has a sort of skill "specificity" even if the pace is not race-specific per se.

Kinda a half-cooked ramble there but could be something to consider.

This thread has gotten talked about in AdvancedRunning a bit, just doesn't really seem to be a critical mass of people in AdvancedRunning (or any of the main running subs for that matter) that both are a good fit for this exact training and have the curiosity to engage with some of the "unconventional" aspects to go deep on the concept.

Training discussion tends to be dominated by recreational marathoning coming from a Daniels/Pfitz/Higdon/Hansons background.

I commonly link to this thread when someone asks some version of the "how do I double threshold" question, because of course the answer to that question for 99.9% of people asking it is "you shouldn't do double threshold, but here's a good way to use some similar principles."

While I don't really subscribe to this exact method per se, I do preach a lot of similar values in the Reddit running subs -more threshold, threshold intervals, back-off the paces slightly, anti-gut busting VO2 max intervals, anti-slugging out huge long runs, etc. In particular, a lot of people have a really tough time even considering that their heroic VO2 max intervals and huge long runs might be counterproductive in many cases, which may explain the lack of interest in a method that pretty much entirely ditches both.

Some reasons:

1) Low body mass/BMI: i guess it was 66kg only, makes him very suitable for a runner. A fact underestimated here.

2) I have no doubt he is talented, opposite to what some people believe or say here . His brain has the ability to learn movement pattern quickly.

3) Consistency: Very important, he is not injury prone, and trains very disciplined without interuptions.

4) Training methology: He analysis data, and found obviously a good method for his body composition and genetic pool, after some trial and error.

People should not be envious, people should try to find their own way to get better.

Excellent thoughts in these 2 posts!
I agree that Sirpoc must definitely be suited to pure LT training, as most runners would at least need some strides or hills at 5K race effort or faster to perform optimally. Kinda makes you wonder if Sirpoc could go even faster with a touch of faster stuff, but as long as he keeps improving, and is enjoying what he's doing, not much sense in that.

I'm a 64 year old retired runner (and current HS XC coach) with 2 total knee replacements, so I no longer run. But, I'm a devoted rower, and have been following an "age-adjusted" Norwegian Method plan for many months. I use a 10 day cycle that includes 2 LT sessions
(one longer reps & one shorter reps), one X-Factor day (what I'd call mile-specific for a runner), and plenty of easy rowing, elliptical, biking, walking on the other days.
The schedule looks like this:

1. Short LT Reps (30-90 seconds/30 sec rests. Kept @ LT effort/HR)
2. Easy Aerobic
3. Easy Aerobic: may insert a few really relaxed 15 second pick-ups
4. Long LT Reps (3-8 minutes kept @ LT effort/HR)
5. Easy Aerobic
6. Easy Aerobic: may insert a few really relaxed 15 second pick-ups
7. X-Factor Day: Generally 30-60 second intervals @ 4 minute race effort
8. Off Day or Easy Aerobic
9, Easy Aerobic
10.Easy Aerobic: may insert a few really relaxed 15 second pick-ups
Repeat....

I can honestly say that while following this schedule, I never have bad days. When I first started doing this kind of training about a year ago, I tried doing a quality session every other day, but found that this led to a lot of residual fatigue (probably due to age). As soon as I started buffering the LT days with 2 easy aerobic days, and followed the X-Factor day with 3 easy aerobic days, I started feeling really good all of the time.

Anyway, great informative thread. Nice that it's continued with posters who are really trying to learn and contribute!