Official LRC President Joseph R Biden Thread

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

agip wrote:

the point is that proxy wars work to keep nuclear war/total war from happening.

that's what's happening in UKR. It is a proxy war that, we should all hope, keep Russia and NATO/USA from fighting directly. because that kind of a direct war would kill millions and could end human civilization.

at the same time, this proxy war, which is destroying the RU military and economy, should teach the next would-be aggressor nation not to do it again.

You seem to think there is no value in this setup. Weird.

This could all end up a huge success for global peace if UKR can hold on and the sanctions work. Could secure a new global pax period.

So we're going to watch Ukraine get obliterated to avoid a nuclear war that no one was threatening?

Putin's SOLE complaint in the world has been NATO encroachment. So the solution to avoiding war with Russia is to do the one thing he says he won't tolerate? That's insane.

The Russian economy is probably going to end up better off than our economy when all is said and done. The ruble has already recovered. If Europe quits buying energy China and India and other countries will just buy it instead.

There is no value in this "setup". We created the condition for this war ON PURPOSE and have no plan to get out of it.

In no universe is restarting the cold war and driving Russia and China closer together a "huge success for global peace".

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

Fat hurts wrote:

I'm with you there. All nations need to stop buying Russian fossil fuels as soon as possible.

And this is exactly what is happening. Right this minute, all of Europe is about to vote for a ban on Russian coal. Some are also banning Russian oil. And some, like Lithuania, have already banned Russian gas as well.

It will take a little time for everyone to come on board with a total ban on all Russian fossil fuels, but I believe it will happen if the war goes on much longer.

Russia will be willing to suffer much much longer than the west will.

Things are going to get very bad already with the food shortage coming and inflation running out of control.

If you think gas prices are high now wait until you see what happens if Europe stops buying Russian oil.

To this day Russia is on the Human Rights council at the UN and as a charter member even if every country on earth votes to kick them out of the UN they can just veto the vote.

NATO is a paper tiger that's unwilling to fight. The UN is absolutely useless.

Russia can kill every man woman and child in Ukraine and NATO and the UN won't do anything but complain and send weapons. Ukraine will eventually run out of warm bodies to use the west's weapons.

agip wrote:

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

So we're going to watch Ukraine get obliterated to avoid a nuclear war that no one was threatening?

Putin's SOLE complaint in the world has been NATO encroachment. So the solution to avoiding war with Russia is to do the one thing he says he won't tolerate? That's insane.

The Russian economy is probably going to end up better off than our economy when all is said and done. The ruble has already recovered. If Europe quits buying energy China and India and other countries will just buy it instead.

There is no value in this "setup". We created the condition for this war ON PURPOSE and have no plan to get out of it.

In no universe is restarting the cold war and driving Russia and China closer together a "huge success for global peace".

i don't think we need to go over Putin's motivation again. He says a lot. you believe what you want to believe. He's also said (paraphrased) 'there is no such thing as ukraine - it is part of russia' but because that doesn't lay blame with NATO, you ignore it. You are fundamentally unserious.

and on the nuclear war front...you avoid escalation. You do all you can to avoid escalation. tht's what kept billions from dying in cold war. It's all we got. things get out of hand once you start one-upping the other side. nations refuse to back down, and then accidents happen and we all die. Dont' start on that road to escalation.

agip wrote:

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

If we aren't willing to bleed for them. Yes.

Ukraine isn't winning. Without physical intervention they will either be stuck in a permanent state of war which destroys Ukraine or they will just suffer greatly and then lose in the end anyway.

This resolution just gives Russia the greenlight to invade Moldava and Georgia when they're done with Ukraine. We've made it clear that Ukraine isn't worth 1 drop of American blood. What purpose to jabbing another stick in Russia's eye serve?

It would be great if the entire world was composed of democracies. China and Russia don't like the idea. If we're going to directly interfere with their neighbors there will be consequences and if we aren't willing to fight we're just encouraging people to die for no reason.

We did the same thing with the shiites in Iraq during the Gulf War. We told them we were coming and to rise up against Saddam. So they did and then we left and they all got slaughtered.

Saying things you won't back up because it feels good and right gets people killed.

were you alive during the cold war? do you remember all those proxy wars? the ones that kept ww3 and the end of civilization from happening?

it's a serious question. were you alive in the 1960-1990 period? Do you know about cold war diplomacy and how it worked?

It often seems you are a college freshman who doesn't know any history at all and just applies libertarian theory to everything.

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

Fat hurts wrote:

Adult, you still refuse to say what you would do differently.

How would your policy towards Ukraine be different from what we are doing right now?

100% of the conflict involving Russia in the 21st century has involved NATO encroaching on it's borders.

My policy would have been to not topple Ukraine's government and jab a stick in Russia's eye.

No nation that's not already in NATO is worth war with Russia over. If you're not willing to go to war for them you shouldn't be telling them you want them in NATO.

There's nothing we can do now that we've screwed up so badly. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

If we stop funding Ukraine we're immoral monsters throwing them to the wolves.

If we keep funding Ukraine we're immoral monsters throwing them to the wolves but at least we can pretend we did the right thing.

agip wrote:

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

100% of the conflict involving Russia in the 21st century has involved NATO encroaching on it's borders.

My policy would have been to not topple Ukraine's government and jab a stick in Russia's eye.

No nation that's not already in NATO is worth war with Russia over. If you're not willing to go to war for them you shouldn't be telling them you want them in NATO.

There's nothing we can do now that we've screwed up so badly. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

If we stop funding Ukraine we're immoral monsters throwing them to the wolves.

If we keep funding Ukraine we're immoral monsters throwing them to the wolves but at least we can pretend we did the right thing.

Adult: go read about the debate over how the USSR ate up eastern europe and whether we should have helped the Eastern Europeans or not. You will find it interesting. Some americans were like you, blaming the West for provoking the Soviets by talking about freedom and self determination. Others felt that it was in the interest of the West to help nations decide their futures for themselves.

ultimately, the 'hands off' people won and tens of millions of people had to submit to the Soviet yoke for 50 years. Which seems to be what you want for the Ukrainians, Belorusians, Moldovans, Georgians, etc.

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

Fat hurts wrote:

Adult, you still refuse to say what you would do differently.

How would your policy towards Ukraine be different from what we are doing right now?

100% of the conflict involving Russia in the 21st century has involved NATO encroaching on it's borders.

My policy would have been to not topple Ukraine's government and jab a stick in Russia's eye.

No nation that's not already in NATO is worth war with Russia over. If you're not willing to go to war for them you shouldn't be telling them you want them in NATO.

There's nothing we can do now that we've screwed up so badly. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

If we stop funding Ukraine we're immoral monsters throwing them to the wolves.

If we keep funding Ukraine we're immoral monsters throwing them to the wolves but at least we can pretend we did the right thing.