Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

How many hours per week is sirpoc running

7.5 hours tops, average 7 hours for past 10 weeks

You do realize they were formerly a very good time trial cyclist right? I can't remember the exact time/ranking but it seemed like a level equivalent or close to a sub-14:00 5k. That's a massive background of training for an event with very similar bioenergetic demands. Achieving ~90% of that former ability in a different discipline is well within what should be expected of normal sensible training -not what I would call unbelievable or fishy by any stretch.

I went under 80’ today (about a minute PR) despite a much harder course and extra distance run (.16) from last years PB. Threshold training works!

I also wonder if there isn’t some kind of abilities late transfer. Maybe it takes time at the beginning as the form/skills are different but once that this barrier was passed he could then translate more and more of his cycling ability into running.

A bit like someone who would have already learned an instrument would struggled learning a new one in the beginning and then eventually improves faster than the normal beginner once he got the skills right.

hope the parallel isn’t too obscure

Edit : doesn’t mean that I don’t think the training isn’t valid, I do some variant of it myself, but just trying to explain why it might work a bit faster for him than some others

It's quite funny to me how so many people are in denial, you can just follow the dude on strava and see for yourself.

I'm assuming sirpoc himself would agree that he can take a lot more time off too over the next year or so at the minimum with the exact same training. Lots of crybabies on here, mad tat they're maybe too old and out of shape and therefore hiding from the truth.

Ok, I was pretty meh at the start of reading this last year, but very rarely do we get a thread where someone actually makes real time progress to this level. Sub 16 at middle aged is very impressive, despite the previous cycling back ground. The question is though why the guy stagnate around a mid to high 18 under previous or what we might call mainstream training but has gone nuclear now when you consider how absolutely crazy boring, mundane, repetitive his running weeks are. If you haven't had a look at Strava, it's totally remarkable how ridiculously easy/simple his weeks look. My whole world is tuned into Daniel's yet this dude doesn't even appear to have ever run anything near 3:10/km at any point, almost ever in history in training then just turns up and cranks out a 15:5x. What the hell is going on . Not only that, the 5k appears to be his strongest PB and it looks on paper absolutely horrible 5k training. Most of this board would wet their pants at how he will lack speed etc.

I think his Time Trial times put him maybe into even the bottom of elite, but his power wasn't huge. I think from reading this thread, he talked about being aerodynamic. Even still, based on his huge cycling ability, incredible running process which I'm sure will get him nearer 15 flat than 16 - if he can swim he could be one of the best age group Triathletes potentially in the world, as I think based on Strava chat he is or about to turn 40. He would do serious, serious damage , especially at the shorter distances.

One thing that has not been mentioned is, as an ex time-trialist he can likely get into a gigantic hurt box and sit in there for quite a while in a whole world of uncomfortableness

He does not run that quick in training, but I expect he is sure able to push f*** off hard in a race. Or at least way harder than I ever seem to be able too :(

The reason this has happened is his previous training was Jack Daniels based (right? or am I misunderstanding?) which means a majority of his race prep training was done at Hard Tempo (roughly half marathon to 10k effort (slower pace)), 5k pace, and mile pace. These all train type IIX fibers maximally (half marathon - 10k also trains IIb fibers very well, the other paces only slightly do this).

This Norwegian Training System focuses on workouts from marathon (+) to 10k pace/effort, which trains the type IIb fibers very well, but not only that, it also transitions your type IIx Fibers into Type IIb, which in turn increases ability at any race between the Marathon and the 3k directly (raises your Critical Power/Anaerobic Threshold and vVO2 Max). This is also why you may feel less "explosive" during true base/threshold training. Your top end speed should remain relatively similar, however, your anaerobic tolerance decreases for anything over roughly 200m (150-250m depending on your training and genetics). If you don't maintain some form of speedwork, your top end speed will also begin to deteriorate.

This brings me to why the Norwegians include hill sprints. Efforts faster than vVO2 Max that leave you "huffin and puffin" (ie 20x200m HARD Hills w/ 2x time jog rec.) actually begin to transition Type I fibers into Type IIx fibers. In general, as a long distance runner, this is bad. This means your fatigue resistance will decrease and you will become more glycogen dependent the more you do this.

Here's the catch : The more Type IIx fibers you have, the more potential Type IIb fibers you have.

This is important to understand, because if you do things right, you will increase your potential as a runner. Many people point to SirPoc doing "traditional" training and then improving massively with threshold training and while this "threshold fitness" is more suited to long distance racing and he could've done well without the harder intervals to begin with, these hard/grueling workouts were a different type of "base" for this threshold work.

This is the reverse of "I tried Lydiard high mileage, but I didn't race well, so I dropped my mileage and went back to my hard interval training and ran the best I ever have!". But in this case, SirPoc dropped the hard intervals (and didn't increase mileage a ton) and improved quite a lot with the threshold focus which primarily transitions the Type IIx fibers into Type IIb fibers.

Now, are these hard workout necessary to PB in 5k and up? the simple answer isNO, however, your potential will not increase, you will only squeeze out more from your potential instead of adding to it. If you were to add a tough anaerobic workout faster than vVO2 Max you may become weaker aerobically, but you will perform better at the 3k and under, while also increasing your potential at the 5k and up.

Now, you might ask, "What about type I fibers? Don't I need those?" and then answer is awesome : You recruit/gain more Type I fibers from running below your Aerobic Threshold (marathon pace ish). This does not take away from your Type IIx fibers! But don't forget to train your Type IIx fibers (sprints) otherwise they will deteriorate.

In short, exceptional Distance Racing between 3 hours and 3 minutes requires exceptional Type IIb Fibers, you get Type IIb fibers from Type IIx fibers, and you get Type IIx fibers from Type I fibers. This is why threshold training is so productive! Threshold training allows you to use your potential (in distance running), everything else increases your potential.

A side note, this is why anything between Aerobic Threshold and Critical Power/Anaerobic Threshold is not always a good idea for 800m runners. As a true 800m runner, you don't want extra Type IIb fibers, you want primarily Type IIx fibers, but you still want to train the Type IIb fibers you have (endurance is still important in an 800m) and you do this by training between your Critical Power/Anaerobic Threshold and your vVO2 Max, hence the 800m "Base" consisting of Easy Running below the Aerobic Threshold, vVo2 Max Work, and Sprint work. This then transitions into Lactate Tolerance work and such, etc.

Continuing off the 800m training idea, this is why you cannot run a (relatively) good 800m when you are in (relatively) great Marathon to 5k Shape. The most obvious case is Jakob Ingebgritsen who, when running at the Prefontaine Diamond League meet, ran 3:43 in the Mile and 7:23 in the 3k. This puts him at approximately 26:20s 10k shape (in the same condtions, time trial, and rested shape). I would then estimate he could "only" run 1:45 (ish) in the 800m, which is incredibly fast, but relatively slow when compared to knocking on the door of a world record in the mile.

The thing here is, Jakob Ingebrigtsen is only "slow" because of the way he train, if he wanted to be a good 800m and 1500m runner, he could be, but he would have to give up his world record ability racing shape at anything above the 3k, because he would have to convert back to Type IIx fibers (3 - 15 min race pace training).

A counter-example to Ingebrigtsen is Nick Willis, who was able to run very fast 1500m races (sub 3:30), a decent 800m (1:45 when his 1500m PR was 3:32), and a lethal kick in championship races. When Nick Willis tried to transition to the 5k, he failed. This was partly because he was older, but mostly because he didn't spend enough time transitioning his fibers to Type IIb. He most likely did similar "Miler" training with more volume, rather than a slower pace/effort. This is also why Gjert has been known to say, it may take years for his program to fully work.

Anyways, sorry for the ramble, but this has been on my mind a lot lately and I am open to discussion on any points I made as I'm sure I have made an error somewhere.

For me quite a nonsense (and other sentences in your text). Type IIx fibers will be (mainly) recruited aboveCV and especially above vVO2max. This is exactly the area Sirpoc is not training at! The genetic pool of sirpoc is likely a lot of slow twitch fibers, some IIb fibers and very less IIx fibers. With his training he addresses most of his fibers.

And fibers do not change so fast with a snap of your finger. There is no clear scientific evidence that slow twitch fibers can be transfered into fast twitch fibers, as also the motor units who activate the fibers, would have to change too. Also fast twitch fibers do not change to slow twitch fibers that quickly, but that seems possible. Most experts believe that slow twitch fibers can not be transfered to fast twitch fibers. 'If you are born slow', you will never get a (good) sprinter. Transfering a sprinter into an aerbic guy is possible, but takes time.

This is a huge factor and surprised it has not been discussed so far in this magnificent thread. I am in the UK myself , I have started dabbling in cycling myself and have rocked up at some of my local 10s. Whilst sirpoc times on the bike are truly mind-blowing, one thing I have noticed is how deep these riders go. Even at a club level. I've never seen people almost dead at the end of the race in a 5k like time trialists are even in a local 10. I wonder why or how this is the case? No muscle impact so you can hold the pain for longer? Hmmmm

What is your explanation then, for sirpoc never running faster than 3:20/km in training and then running 15:54 with splits of 3:14, 3:14, 3:11, 3:09, 3:02?

What is sirpoc s strava name?

The link to the Strava group in on page 52 of this thread. Take it from there :)

This is the bit I struggle with. On Strava, most of his workouts are 3:30+ or maybe 3:24-25 average for 1k repeats. Yet he can just bust out a 3:11, 3:09 and 3:02 finish? That's a fantastic kick, good speed and flies in face of training understanding of text books as well as everyone saying he's slow twitch. Genuinely, are their sessions we don't know about? Not troll post.

It is not nonsense, it's just less well known. You are correct that IIx fibers are trained above CP (aerobically) and even more so above vVo2 Max (anaerobically). I may have miscommunicated, but I meant between the LT1/Aerobic Threshold and Critical power/LT2/Anaerobic Threshold as "threshold focus" training, which the closer you are to the Aerobic Threshold you are, the more likely you are to shift your fiber type from IIx to IIb.

The addition of muscle fibers, primarily type I, has been shown and is the basic idea of hyperplasia.

The transition from Type I to Type IIx is a real phenomenon as well, but requires grueling workouts in a specific intensity zone (above vVO2 Max).

At no point did I say this was fast like you imply. I implied this could take years and I only ever said you can transition fibers, increasing or decreasing each type, I didn't say a slow twitch hobby jogger could be a world class sprinter, but you also have guys like Narve Nordas who had "no talent" in his own words and then runs sub 3:30 after a few years of this stuff.

I don't think the Perfect training system has been perfectly outlined before (I don't have that for you either) but this Norwegian training is VERY close, maybe the closest ever.

I'm not going to go find the scientific papers to prove myself unless you do so first.

I am enjoying the re interest in this thread, no surprising given the facts that sirpoc is now sub 16. Whatever lets run have you believe, that's quite something for a 40 year old with averages talent.

I don't want to disrespect the guy, but he has said it himself. I think that's what is being missed. We assume he is super talent. He's really not. He mentions in this thread he is maybe 160w FTP I think untrained cycling. That is probably average or even just below at his weight if you picked 100 random dudes. Also, he mentioned at high school which is a fantastic indicator of talent, he was middle of the pack in XC. Barely anyone trains for that I believe in Great Britain, do the plscings are likely talent based give or take a few keen runners and the fat kids at the back.

Which leads me to thinking this is MOSTLY about the system. But what is striking, remarkable, interacting etc is how routine, mundane or down right boring it seems. I've been following the dude on Strava for 3 months. You can literally predict each day what session he will do, what paces etc without fail.

Did you ever heared of the Henneman's size principle ??

The concept known as order of recruitment is based on Heinemann's Size Principle, which states that under load, motor units are naturally recruited from smallest to largest.

Therefore slow twitch fibers are first recruited, as they have the smallest motor units!

That means for a sub-CV unit Sirpoc does, he recruits allmost all of his slow twitch fibers and a lot of his type IIa fibers, and very few type IIx fibers (intensity too low).

To claim that he transfers his type IIx into type IIa is therefore nonsense. The body has no reason to do so.

To claim that slow twitch fibers transfer to type IIa fibers is therefore also nonsense. The body has no reason to do so.