The Russians Have Hacked WADA: Leaked Drug Tests/TUEs - Real or Not?

cleans wrote:

Just been reading the Fancy Bears thread in The Clinic section of the cyclingnews forum.

All those registered users posting ... no trolling ... it felt weird.

No surprise you came back here then.

No trolling = boring!!!!!!!!!! wrote:

cleans wrote:

Just been reading the Fancy Bears thread in The Clinic section of the cyclingnews forum.

All those registered users posting ... no trolling ... it felt weird.

No surprise you came back here then.

Yep, feels good to be back.

BBC Radio World Service "World Have Your Say"

Broadcast today "Athletics & Banned Drugs" one of LR's favourite sons, Steve Magness, Head Cross Country Coach, University of Houston, starts talking at 14min 55secs point, although the American medical expert before him is worth a listen:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/p04758js

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04758js

Interesting that the only two British winners of the Tour de France are both asthma sufferers.

When I was at school, asthma was something that got you out of doing sport.

cleans wrote:

Interesting that the only two British winners of the Tour de France are both asthma sufferers.

When I was at school, asthma was something that got you out of doing sport.

Indeed. The whole thread about "Is asthma TUE compatible with elite athletism" discussed that (in the Sundby context).

From my standpoint, it's just difficult to measure what "returning to the normal state" means with asthma meds, and for any individual reaction it might be more or less than simply "equalizing out" the effect. It could also be argued that the list of asthma TUE specialists is also dominated by a certain agenda.

cleans wrote:

Interesting that the only two British winners of the Tour de France are both asthma sufferers.

When I was at school, asthma was something that got you out of doing sport.

Perhaps a critical specific question in a subgenre of the asthma debate could be phrased:

if exercise (or physical activity) is a trigger for your asthma, why isn't "stop exercising" a treatment?

(TUEs require there to be no known treatment that doesn't include a performance-enhancing effects.)

Same with the skiers: if cold, dry air (and exercise in it) triggers your asthma, why isn't "stay out of the cold" a treatment?

trollism wrote:

For an acute condition, surely you would have to get a backdated TUE because by the time all the paperwork is sorted, you would have started the prescription already.

Sounds good in theory, which might explain why several TUEs are backdated by 1 - 5 days. But if you look into the FB day-2 thread, you'll find several examples with TUEs having been backdated by as much as two weeks, three weeks, and even more than four weeks.

As for Gatlin, I don't know why he didn't get a backdated TUE. Maybe he couldn't find three willing doctors fast enough, or too much time passed between the test date and when he learned that he was caught doping. Or he didn't think of it. Or maybe he did submit a TUE after the positive test, but USADA played by the rules at that point for whatever reason.

hypovenilator wrote:

cleans wrote:

Interesting that the only two British winners of the Tour de France are both asthma sufferers.

When I was at school, asthma was something that got you out of doing sport.

Perhaps a critical specific question in a subgenre of the asthma debate could be phrased:

if exercise (or physical activity) is a trigger for your asthma, why isn't "stop exercising" a treatment?

(TUEs require there to be no known treatment that doesn't include a performance-enhancing effects.)

Same with the skiers: if cold, dry air (and exercise in it) triggers your asthma, why isn't "stay out of the cold" a treatment?

And if inhaling automobile exhaust triggers your asthma, you should live in the Amazon, or an airtight room with filtered air and a treadmill.

If there is nothing to hide why the outrage(by WADA, USADA as well as UKAD) over the hacking of the data and its leakage? And especially that the leaked documents have been confirmed as authentic? The hackers just did the public a favor by letting them access what WADA ought to have put out long time for them to see (and judge)! Either we want a clean sport or not. We have all been pleading for WADA or rather Iaaf to release doping tests results and biological passport data for athletes like Mo Farah, Paula Radcliff and others. So far nothing has been forthcoming. If more hackings and leakages happen maybe they will relent and start to release the data of the athletes of interest.

Also, your beloved East Africans..... (and at the top level, they're not mostly clean)[/quote]

Only leaked data can remove any doubts if iaaf is unwilling to release them to the public.

Bullshit ....

1.

more disinformation from the powers that be .......................

chosen athletes from select countries are so so clean ...

that all that wada can find is afew tue's ...........................

utter bullshit .

just out from one of the dirtiest olympics ever and

people need to be told again how clean it was .

no mention at all of real dope everywhere igf-1 lr3 , just blank...

or the new ped mildronate alpha used with it ,

broke how many records now ..

how obvious does it have to be

wada is a cover and may as well be pushing the peds..

2.

as for galen rupp running 26.40's on tue's just not possible

low 27 maybe but this peptide and nike undectable epo and testosterone

at very least and any thing else can get away at the time or nike supplied

is needed to run these times ,

or simply given a free card to dope at certain times or for correct fee

,real peds not just some inhaler is the reality of such times

tues can help but not that sort of gain ,

similarly with fromme or wiggins.

you are being fed constant bullshit now by these marxist commies that

taken over the west .

And

whether russia is in on it ,

which beginning to believe,

with the whole ban russia to make others look clean ,fasade

and putin goes with it to galvanise the population and isolate / insulate

themselves from what the west is becoming .....

look at olympic boxing ,russia got payed back in return there big time

again beyond obvious ,for no track and field

maybe

or simply dont care if these marxist in control

of the west lie to you

or simply in on the whole thing like assange or snowden

really work for opposition ..

with modern disinformation weapon of hacking ................

being the controlled opposition

and a method of control especially to divide and create dissent

truth = seeing the light ...................

Russia Today experts agree.

So it starts with dodgy local physicians (Arizona, Ohio), and the TUEC controlled by various interests (like Scandinavians in XC skiing).

cleans wrote:

Interesting that the only two British winners of the Tour de France are both asthma sufferers.

When I was at school, asthma was something that got you out of doing sport.

It almost seems that having asthma is a requirement to win the TDF for Brits!

There are way too many great runners, cyclists, swimmers, etc. with asthma. I can't remember the percentages. Someone else can look them up.

All of this information that was hacked is private medical information. All of these people have been violated by the hackers.

No laws have been broken. All these TUEs are legal. That does not mean that they are all "needed".

There is no TUE needed for thyroid hormones (T4 and T3)…so prescriptions for thyroid hormone will not show up on these TUE lists.

There are no TUEs seen on these lists for testosterone, other anabolic steroids, or EPO…which are the drugs that really work. (DHEA is a very weak androgen made by the adrenal gland and can be purchased at any health food store in the US.)

All of these other drugs may have some minor performance enhancing effect …but I think it is an order of magnitude lower than anabolic steroids or EPO.

Adderall is a mixture of dextroamphetamine and amphetamine. Obviously it is less potent, but it is an amphetamine drug, and not that much different than methamphetamine (meth), as seen on the show Breaking Bad. It is a schedule II controlled substance with a high potential for abuse.

There are lots of little 8 year old kids on this stuff in the US. It is crazy. Teenagers, College Students…and now we have the fairly new diagnosis of …Adult Onset ADD!

Bradley Wiggins is a TDF winner who is a young man. He also has asthma and had 6 TUEs for beta-2 agonist inhalers and glucocorticoids for his asthma and allergies.We have no idea if the glucocorticoid was for topical use, or if they were oral pills. We also have to look at the differences between use for 1 day vs. 1 week vs. 1 month. We also have no idea of the doses used.

There is no way for us to know if it is a legitimate medical use…or not.

It could go either way. It could also go either way with Adderall and some other drugs.

This really is a grey (gray) area.

???

correction: adrenal glands (2)

I know someone is waiting to point out my errors.

I will point out this one for you.

Sssssssh! Renato might spoil everyone's fun by saying that EPO has no effect and that every Kenyan is clean. Ssssssssh!

Yes, but...

The dosages for which Hollywood celebs take it as an anti-aging therapy is different than the dosage an athlete might use. There's also the possible trick of intentionally *not* using the time release delivery method, in hopes of overwhelming the body's adrenal system to coerce it into producing more T (this of course can have serious side effects, like swings and dependency; but as we know, athletes will look at every angle they can think of).

Also, the term "very weak" refers to androgenic potency I guess (no argument there), but the effect on women (who tend to convert it to testosterone) might in particular be amplified in a competitive sports context.

Its use is probably also more of a "cocktail" drug, to ameliorate effects of other PEDs being taken.

Your first paragraph makes no sense. Your study basically agrees with me that there is no evidence of performance enhancement in the elderly or in males. There is also no published evidence of performance enhancement in female athletes…so we do not know for sure.

Both men and women can convert some DHEA into testosterone. DHEA use is detected on tests. It is very difficult to get a TUE for dehydroepiandrosterone(DHEA).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27154828

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204290

http://www.rsc.org/Education/EiC/issues/2010Mar/FiveRingsGoodFourRingsBad.asp

Your first paragraph makes no sense.

Basically I was arguing against the idea that "it's in health food stores so it can't be too strong of stuff" (which I inferred from your comment). Dosage is key. The paper specifically mentions the possibility of overloading the adrenal system (in the abstract, as a quasi-rationale for its WADA ban).

It is very difficult to get a TUE for dehydroepiandrosterone(DHEA).

Depends on whom you are getting the TUE from. In the upthread CAS case discussion for Mattek-Sands, she seems to have found it rather easy to get 3 doctors to agree (one who seems to be a quack), and for the ITF to approve. Only WADA twice intervening (once after 7 months, and once after a few days) made it "difficult" per se.

Note that DHEA has also been cited with lowering fat levels, though there is not great agreement about this (except in rats it is clear by now I think).

For women, the paper seems to hedge its bets (perhaps wise as a meta-study), explicitly noting: However, comparable studies in female athletes are missing and are more likely to demonstrate an ergogenic potential of DHEA because, unlike in men, DHEA is able to greatly increase circulating testosterone in healthy women in a dose-dependent fashion (citing "Pharmacokinetics of dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites after long-term oral dehydroepiandrosterone treatment in postmenopausal women"), and furthermore starts the summary with: The situation might be entirely different in women. Caveat emptor.