If Kipchoge wins in 11 days, he’ll dethrone K.B. as the G.O.A.T. distance runner

Wise Old Man wrote:

McRunnin wrote:

Thank you for considering my ideas. I will grant you that Kipchoge lowered the world record by much more than Bekele ever did in the 5K or 10K. That's definitely a feather in Kipchoge's cap. I did mention that Kipchoge's marathon world record is a better mark than anything Bekele produced, albeit by 2 measly seconds.

Re: their performance scores, it's contradictory to say such a comparison favors the track standout and then turn around and try to dismiss the fact that Kipchoge never challenged the world record on the track. Kipchoge competed on the track for nearly a decade, from 2003-2012 during his age 18-27 seasons. Why couldn't he have run faster? Surely there were plenty of opportunities, as Bekele achieved his marks during that exact same time span.

It's also not the case that Bekele caught lightning in a bottle and ran a bunch of fast times on the track in a short time span like Daniel Komen. Bekele ran track times that still rank in today's all-time top 10 list in four different years: 2004, 2005, 2007, and 2008.
Kipchoge failed to achieve a top-10 performance on the track during his age 18-27 seasons. Bekele ran the second fastest marathon ever (and just two seconds off Kipchoge's world record) at age 37. Huge advantage for Bekele!

As for cross country, I believe GOAT debates are measured in terms of consistent dominance. Not who had success defined in terms of a single championship, secondary medals, and contender status. Just sheer consistent dominance. Ngugi won that single gold medal, but he was not consistently dominant on the track. Tergat deserves credit for his world record, and he definitely gave Geb all he could handle on the track, but in the end he failed to get the job done when it mattered most. Cheptegei's cross country record is a mixed bag. He has the one global championship to go with the one infamous bonk. He still has a lot of time ahead of him, so may yet join Bekele as someone who has been consistently dominant in both cross country and track, and if he does then he might stake his own claim to be the GOAT. At this point, however, there is one and only one modern day runner who has been consistently dominant at both track and cross country, and his name is Kenenisa Bekele.

Given your 2 vs 1 argument, is there anything EK could do on the roads going forward that would tip the balance in his favor? Can the 1 every be so incredible as to overcome the 2?

John Wesley Harding wrote:

foggy bottom wrote:

And please -- you didn't respond to my points because you didn't find them compelling? In this very thread you've rebutted posts you didn't find compelling. In a debate-like thread like this, nearly every post is a response to a point the author doesn't find compelling. That's clearly not your real reason.

I’m afraid to get off topic here and veer into a personal tiff, but let me illustrate how this is absurd, or rather how you simply misconstrued my meaning.

The #1 definition of “compelling” is: evoking interest, attention, or admiration in a powerfully irresistible way.

By that definition, which is the one I was using, I haven’t responded to any posts that didn’t compel me to reply.

I’m saying your arguments in Bekele’s favor did not evoke my interest or attention, because I was well aware of everything you stated and was already accounting for it in my assessment.

Stop believing that I must be dodging your arguments because they’re somehow logically irrefutable. That’s incredibly arrogant and frankly just dumb.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

McRunnin wrote:

That's an interesting angle on this debate. I hadn't considered looking at it that way. I'll give it a try:

Kipchoge marathon vs Bekele 5K/10K

Kipchoge broke the world record once and ran those two impressive exhibition time trials. On the all-time list, his best record-eligible performances rank 1st, 3rd, and 4th; that's 3 top-5 performances in the marathon. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he hasn't won any world championships, and he has won 9 majors across 7 different years (2014-2019, 2022).

Bekele broke the world record 4 times. On the all-time list, his best performances at 5K rank 2nd and 5th, and his best performances at 10K rank 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th; that's 3 top-5 performances and another top 10 time in the 10K plus 2 more top-5 performances in the 5K. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he has won world championships in 4 other years, and he has won 23 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 8 different years (2003, 2005-2009, 2011, 2013).

We can also look at their 5 best performances and how they stack up based on the World Athletics Scoring Tables:

Kipchoge's 5 best marathons:
2:01:39: 1303 points
2:02:37: 1286 points
2:02:40: 1285 points
2:03:05: 1278 points
2:03:32: 1270 points
Average points: 1284.4

Bekele's 5 best 5K/10K times:
26:17: 1295 points
12:37: 1294 points
26:20: 1290 points
12:40: 1283 points
26:25: 1281 points
Average points: 1288.6

Verdict: It's definitely close, but I believe Bekele has the edge because he has broken the world record on more than one occasion, more top-10 performances in the 10K than Kipchoge has in the marathon, major victories across more years, and a higher average point value for his top 5 performances. Kipchoge's best marathon performance is better than Bekele's best 10K, but Bekele's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best performances in his specialty are all better than Kipchoge's in his.

Kipchoge 5K/10K vs Bekele marathon

Kipchoge does not have any top 10 times in the 5K or 10K, but he is the 7th fastest performer all-time in the 5K. He won that famous 5K world championship in 2003, and he won three other global medals across 3 more years. He also won 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 5 years (2003-2005, 2008, 2010).

Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner of all time, and he has two top 10 times in the marathon, ranking 2nd and 10th. He hasn't won any Olympic or world championship medals, but he has won two marathon majors (2016 and 2019 Berlin) and has finished on the podium at three other majors: 2016 London, 2017 London, and 2021 Berlin.

Kipchoge's 5 best 5K/10K runs:
12:46: 1259 points
12:50: 1246 points
12:50: 1245 points
26:49: 1244 points
12:51: 1242 points
Average points: 1247.2

Bekele's 5 best marathons:
2:01:41: 1302 points
2:03:03: 1278 points
2:05:04: 1243 points
2:05:57: 1228 points
2:06:47: 1214 points
Average points: 1253.0

Verdict: I'd say a draw. Kipchoge's world championship, 3 other global championship medals, and 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final wins outrank Bekele's 5 marathon major podium finishes and absence of any global championship medals (I blame the Ethiopian federation's 2016 mistake for Bekele not having an Olympic medal in the marathon). On the other hand, looking at times and placement on the all-time top 10 lists favors Bekele. Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner ever while Kipchoge is "only" the 7th fastest at 5K. Bekele's 5 best marathon times have a higher average point value than Kipchoge's 5 best performances at 5K/10K. Plus Bekele's top 2 marathon times have much higher point values than anything Kipchoge did at 5/10. Overall, it's very close, basically a toss-up!

Summary and Additional Consideration

If we merely look at their track and marathon performances, it's very close. Bekele has the edge in his specialty events, and they're basically even in their non-specialties.

Of course, merely looking at their track and marathon performances omits an analysis of what they did in cross country, which should absolutely be considered a separate category. As I've stated previously, Bekele's quintuple-double at world cross is phenomenal. It is not a guarantee that someone who is great at 5K/10K on the track will also be great in cross country at the global level, or vice versa.

For proof, look at Haile Gebrselassie's finishes at World Cross:
1993: 7th
1994: 3rd
1996: 5th

Similarly, we can look at the other two modern day runners who have consistently dominated at cross country besides Bekele: Paul Tergat and Geoffrey Kamworor. They won a combined 0 (zero) gold medals on the track.

Track and cross country require different strengths. One involves running laps on a flat oval, the other requires running over hill and dale (and in mud). Bekele's ability to consistently dominate at both is exceptional. He should be recognized for this.

Another great post, but of course I must quibble a bit.

Firstly, and this is definitely minor, but are you including Bekele’s indoor 5k among the 4 times he broke a 5k/10k WR? Fair enough I guess, but we all know the indoor 5k WR has nowhere near the prestige of the marathon WR in this or any other era. Otherwise, he broke the 5k record once (bringing it from 12:39 to 12:37) and the 10k twice (from 26:22 to 26:20 and then again to 26:17). Kipchoge lowered the marathon WR by 78 seconds.

As for your method of averaging Bekele’s top 5 5k/10k scores vs. Kipchoge’s top 5 marathon scores, surely you must admit this method favors the 5k-10k runner who can race numerous times in a single season (meaning more chances for ideal weather, optimal pacing or just a day when they feel great) and fully recover within weeks over the marathoner who can only race about twice a year, and is at the mercy of the elements—right? You seem like a logical person.

On the other hand (and you might say in direct opposition to the point I just made), I don’t think averaging the top-5 scores of Kipchoge’s 5ks and 10ks vs. Bekele’s top-5 marathons (2 of which were serious outliers) paints an accurate picture of their respective careers in those events whatsoever. For one thing, if you include Kipchoge’s 3k performances, his tally looks like this:

12:46: 1259 points
7:27: 1254 points
7:27: 1254 points
7:28: 1249 points
7:28: 1249 points
avg: 1253 points

Which is exactly the same as Bekele’s top-5 marathon average. Additionally, I don’t think Kipchoge ever made a concerted 5k WR attempt (his 12:46 5k came in a win over Sihine in the 2004 Rome DL). The 2003 WC 5K was run with a 2:43 4th K (13:35 pace), with a 2:24.3 last K and a 53.5 final lap, leader-to-leader, for a 12:52 clocking. You don’t think Kipchoge was capable of more than a bit quicker, as an 18 year old?

I’m absolutely convinced that Kipchoge had a greater career on the track than Bekele has had in the marathon. No question. If you believe Bekele’s career on the track + XC was better than Kipchoge’s marathon career, I can entertain that as a valid opinion. But I feel Kipchoge’s marathon career outdoes Bekele’s track/XC career, and no amount of downvotes will change that opinion.

On the subject of cross country, you accurately state that Tergat and Kamworor never won global track golds. But Tergat came within hundredths of beating a prime Gebrselassie in the Sydney 10k, was the first man under 26:30 when he broke the 10k WR (26:27), and ran 12:49/7:28 for 5k/3k, so it’s not like he didn’t find some success on the track. Kamworor was less successful but still gave absolute prime Farah a run for silver in the 2015 WC 10k. Then you have the other 5-time World XC champ John Ngugi, who won Olympic 5k gold in 1988, and the most recent World XC champ Joshua Cheptegei who we all know about. There’s a strong correlation between XC success and 5k/10k track success, and while dominance in one doesn’t guarantee dominance in another, it’s not exactly surprising or shockingly impressive.

My final point before I stop posting on this thread for the night (jk I’ll likely post more) is that even if the purists hate it, and I don’t take it into account 100% myself, Kipchoge’s 2:00:25/1:59:41 illegal, well-publicized time trials have to count for something. My friggin’ mom knows who Eliud Kipchoge is. Kenenisa Bekele, not at all.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

McRunnin wrote:

Mr. Harding, I believe you are not understanding the point being made by "big daddy." The point is that Bekele ran just about as fast as Kipchoge did, on the very same course, in Kipchoge's best event, just one year later. Are Kipchoge's personal best times close to Bekele's in the 5K or 10K?

The way I interpret the “2:01:41…nuff said” argument is this: Bekele was able to (indirectly, as in not head-to-head) challenge Kipchoge at least once in the latter’s particular domain (the marathon in 2019)—in response to which I think the natural opposing argument is that Kipchoge was able to challenge (beat head-to-head for a gold medal) Bekele and El Guerrouj in their domain (track 5,000m in 2003).

If all you’re willing to consider in this GOAT argument is 12:37/26:17/2:01:41 vs. 12:46/26:49/2:01:39, then of course Bekele wins. But that’s a very shallow appraisal of their twenty year careers.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

McRunnin wrote:

That's an interesting angle on this debate. I hadn't considered looking at it that way. I'll give it a try:

Kipchoge marathon vs Bekele 5K/10K

Kipchoge broke the world record once and ran those two impressive exhibition time trials. On the all-time list, his best record-eligible performances rank 1st, 3rd, and 4th; that's 3 top-5 performances in the marathon. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he hasn't won any world championships, and he has won 9 majors across 7 different years (2014-2019, 2022).

Bekele broke the world record 4 times. On the all-time list, his best performances at 5K rank 2nd and 5th, and his best performances at 10K rank 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th; that's 3 top-5 performances and another top 10 time in the 10K plus 2 more top-5 performances in the 5K. He has won Olympic gold in two different Games, he has won world championships in 4 other years, and he has won 23 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 8 different years (2003, 2005-2009, 2011, 2013).

We can also look at their 5 best performances and how they stack up based on the World Athletics Scoring Tables:

Kipchoge's 5 best marathons:
2:01:39: 1303 points
2:02:37: 1286 points
2:02:40: 1285 points
2:03:05: 1278 points
2:03:32: 1270 points
Average points: 1284.4

Bekele's 5 best 5K/10K times:
26:17: 1295 points
12:37: 1294 points
26:20: 1290 points
12:40: 1283 points
26:25: 1281 points
Average points: 1288.6

Verdict: It's definitely close, but I believe Bekele has the edge because he has broken the world record on more than one occasion, more top-10 performances in the 10K than Kipchoge has in the marathon, major victories across more years, and a higher average point value for his top 5 performances. Kipchoge's best marathon performance is better than Bekele's best 10K, but Bekele's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best performances in his specialty are all better than Kipchoge's in his.

Kipchoge 5K/10K vs Bekele marathon

Kipchoge does not have any top 10 times in the 5K or 10K, but he is the 7th fastest performer all-time in the 5K. He won that famous 5K world championship in 2003, and he won three other global medals across 3 more years. He also won 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final races across 5 years (2003-2005, 2008, 2010).

Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner of all time, and he has two top 10 times in the marathon, ranking 2nd and 10th. He hasn't won any Olympic or world championship medals, but he has won two marathon majors (2016 and 2019 Berlin) and has finished on the podium at three other majors: 2016 London, 2017 London, and 2021 Berlin.

Kipchoge's 5 best 5K/10K runs:
12:46: 1259 points
12:50: 1246 points
12:50: 1245 points
26:49: 1244 points
12:51: 1242 points
Average points: 1247.2

Bekele's 5 best marathons:
2:01:41: 1302 points
2:03:03: 1278 points
2:05:04: 1243 points
2:05:57: 1228 points
2:06:47: 1214 points
Average points: 1253.0

Verdict: I'd say a draw. Kipchoge's world championship, 3 other global championship medals, and 7 Golden League/Diamond League/World Athletics Final wins outrank Bekele's 5 marathon major podium finishes and absence of any global championship medals (I blame the Ethiopian federation's 2016 mistake for Bekele not having an Olympic medal in the marathon). On the other hand, looking at times and placement on the all-time top 10 lists favors Bekele. Bekele is the 2nd fastest marathoner ever while Kipchoge is "only" the 7th fastest at 5K. Bekele's 5 best marathon times have a higher average point value than Kipchoge's 5 best performances at 5K/10K. Plus Bekele's top 2 marathon times have much higher point values than anything Kipchoge did at 5/10. Overall, it's very close, basically a toss-up!

Summary and Additional Consideration

If we merely look at their track and marathon performances, it's very close. Bekele has the edge in his specialty events, and they're basically even in their non-specialties.

Of course, merely looking at their track and marathon performances omits an analysis of what they did in cross country, which should absolutely be considered a separate category. As I've stated previously, Bekele's quintuple-double at world cross is phenomenal. It is not a guarantee that someone who is great at 5K/10K on the track will also be great in cross country at the global level, or vice versa.

For proof, look at Haile Gebrselassie's finishes at World Cross:
1993: 7th
1994: 3rd
1996: 5th

Similarly, we can look at the other two modern day runners who have consistently dominated at cross country besides Bekele: Paul Tergat and Geoffrey Kamworor. They won a combined 0 (zero) gold medals on the track.

Track and cross country require different strengths. One involves running laps on a flat oval, the other requires running over hill and dale (and in mud). Bekele's ability to consistently dominate at both is exceptional. He should be recognized for this.

Another great post, but of course I must quibble a bit.

Firstly, and this is definitely minor, but are you including Bekele’s indoor 5k among the 4 times he broke a 5k/10k WR? Fair enough I guess, but we all know the indoor 5k WR has nowhere near the prestige of the marathon WR in this or any other era. Otherwise, he broke the 5k record once (bringing it from 12:39 to 12:37) and the 10k twice (from 26:22 to 26:20 and then again to 26:17). Kipchoge lowered the marathon WR by 78 seconds.

As for your method of averaging Bekele’s top 5 5k/10k scores vs. Kipchoge’s top 5 marathon scores, surely you must admit this method favors the 5k-10k runner who can race numerous times in a single season (meaning more chances for ideal weather, optimal pacing or just a day when they feel great) and fully recover within weeks over the marathoner who can only race about twice a year, and is at the mercy of the elements—right? You seem like a logical person.

On the other hand (and you might say in direct opposition to the point I just made), I don’t think averaging the top-5 scores of Kipchoge’s 5ks and 10ks vs. Bekele’s top-5 marathons (2 of which were serious outliers) paints an accurate picture of their respective careers in those events whatsoever. For one thing, if you include Kipchoge’s 3k performances, his tally looks like this:

12:46: 1259 points
7:27: 1254 points
7:27: 1254 points
7:28: 1249 points
7:28: 1249 points
avg: 1253 points

Which is exactly the same as Bekele’s top-5 marathon average. Additionally, I don’t think Kipchoge ever made a concerted 5k WR attempt (his 12:46 5k came in a win over Sihine in the 2004 Rome DL). The 2003 WC 5K was run with a 2:43 4th K (13:35 pace), with a 2:24.3 last K and a 53.5 final lap, leader-to-leader, for a 12:52 clocking. You don’t think Kipchoge was capable of more than a bit quicker, as an 18 year old?

I’m absolutely convinced that Kipchoge had a greater career on the track than Bekele has had in the marathon. No question. If you believe Bekele’s career on the track + XC was better than Kipchoge’s marathon career, I can entertain that as a valid opinion. But I feel Kipchoge’s marathon career outdoes Bekele’s track/XC career, and no amount of downvotes will change that opinion.

On the subject of cross country, you accurately state that Tergat and Kamworor never won global track golds. But Tergat came within hundredths of beating a prime Gebrselassie in the Sydney 10k, was the first man under 26:30 when he broke the 10k WR (26:27), and ran 12:49/7:28 for 5k/3k, so it’s not like he didn’t find some success on the track. Kamworor was less successful but still gave absolute prime Farah a run for silver in the 2015 WC 10k. Then you have the other 5-time World XC champ John Ngugi, who won Olympic 5k gold in 1988, and the most recent World XC champ Joshua Cheptegei who we all know about. There’s a strong correlation between XC success and 5k/10k track success, and while dominance in one doesn’t guarantee dominance in another, it’s not exactly surprising or shockingly impressive.

My final point before I stop posting on this thread for the night (jk I’ll likely post more) is that even if the purists hate it, and I don’t take it into account 100% myself, Kipchoge’s 2:00:25/1:59:41 illegal, well-publicized time trials have to count for something. My friggin’ mom knows who Eliud Kipchoge is. Kenenisa Bekele, not at all.

Wise Old Man wrote:

foggy bottom wrote:

This is a great question, and I've enjoyed your discussion of it with McRunnin. I suppose I would argue that Bekele's XC dominance is arguably as impressive as what Kipchoge has achieved in the marathon (those 4k and 12k back-to-back wins are about as unprecedented as Kipchoge's incredible achievements). But I like how you're suggesting a unique, interesting frame for comparing Bekele and Kipchoge.

Thank you. You sound as if you might be persuadable😉. Just imagine that EK runs Berlin this fall (that’s the rumor) and breaks the wr. In 2023 he runs and wins Boston and NY and sets the course record in the latter. To end his career, he wins his 3rd Olympic gold in Paris. None of this is beyond the ream of possible for Ek, but of course none of it may happen. Let’s say it did….what would you say now about EK v KB. Certainly what EK would have accomplished is by far the greatest accomplishments in his best event of any athlete in any event(s) by a wide margin. This titanic resume so overwhelms that we are left not simply to say he is the marathon goat, but the greatest runner of all time😊

Wise Old Man wrote:

foggy bottom wrote:

This is a great question, and I've enjoyed your discussion of it with McRunnin. I suppose I would argue that Bekele's XC dominance is arguably as impressive as what Kipchoge has achieved in the marathon (those 4k and 12k back-to-back wins are about as unprecedented as Kipchoge's incredible achievements). But I like how you're suggesting a unique, interesting frame for comparing Bekele and Kipchoge.

Thank you. You sound as if you might be persuadable😉. Just imagine that EK runs Berlin this fall (that’s the rumor) and breaks the wr. In 2023 he runs and wins Boston and NY and sets the course record in the latter. To end his career, he wins his 3rd Olympic gold in Paris. None of this is beyond the ream of possible for Ek, but of course none of it may happen. Let’s say it did….what would you say now about EK v KB. Certainly what EK would have accomplished is by far the greatest accomplishments in his best event of any athlete in any event(s) by a wide margin. This titanic resume so overwhelms that we are left not simply to say he is the marathon goat, but the greatest runner of all time😊

Dead Horse Point wrote:

Not to beat a dead horse but your analogy with Kipchoge's 2003 to Bekele's marathon PR is flawed and here is why. In one race anything can happen, just as anything can happen in one game in a team sport. It's the old on any give Sunday meme. In any given race one runner can have a bad day and another can run out of their mind. Why didn't Kipchoge ever beat Bekele again at 5K?

On the other hand, a lifetime PR represents the best they were able to achieve, typically over many attempts at a distance. A PR is what someone runs on their best day. So comparing lifetime PRs is a more meaningful way to compare careers than just the outcome of one race.

And for those that claim that XC doesn't matter (not directing his at you) - that's nonsense. Do you think that only Bekele showed up in shape and put in the effort to win and all of his competitors just weren't trying. He proved year after year that he was just better than everyone else.

foggy bottom wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

I’m afraid to get off topic here and veer into a personal tiff, but let me illustrate how this is absurd, or rather how you simply misconstrued my meaning.

The #1 definition of “compelling” is: evoking interest, attention, or admiration in a powerfully irresistible way.

By that definition, which is the one I was using, I haven’t responded to any posts that didn’t compel me to reply.

I’m saying your arguments in Bekele’s favor did not evoke my interest or attention, because I was well aware of everything you stated and was already accounting for it in my assessment.

Stop believing that I must be dodging your arguments because they’re somehow logically irrefutable. That’s incredibly arrogant and frankly just dumb.

Sorry, but my arguments addressed gaps -- yes, gaps -- in your case. My points were hardly unreasonable or, as you seem to think, unworthy of acknowledgement; a number of other entirely reasonable, non-trollish posters in this thread endorsed them.

One of my basic questions, which you continue to avoid answering, is quite simple: why should we place tremendous importance upon Kipchoge's wins in professional non-championship races (e.g. Berlin, Chicago) that pitted him against one or two other truly superelite competitors while treating Bekele's many victories in professional non-championship races that often featured the biggest talents of his generation (Diamond/Golden Leagues) as essentially afterthoughts?

You wave these latter wins away as merely "what we would expect," but many of the fields Bekele beat in these races featured fields at least as strong relative to their distances as those Kipchoge faced in his marathons. I get that big-city marathons attract far more media attention and occur far less often than pro track races, but there's not nearly as much of a difference between Bekele's wins and Kipchoge's as you seem to believe.

You can claim that you "already accounted" for this argument "in your assessment," but that's just a cop-out, a way of not answering my question. My suspicion is that you did not account for this argument, or that if you did, you did not properly assess Bekele's pro track dominance, relegating it to more or less a footnote in his career. (Again, what makes many of those wins so different from the marathon wins that comprise nearly half of the career achievements you list for Kipchoge in your original post?)

In any event, if the rebuttal to my argument is as self-evident as you seem to think, it surely shouldn't take long to write out on this thread. So go ahead. I've posed this question at least three times without eliciting a reply, which does indeed make me wonder at this point whether you're simply dodging the question.

And nowhere was I suggesting my arguments were "irrefutable;" I was simply pointing out the fact that none of the four or five people who were posting frequent pro-Kipchoge messages had bothered to address my objections, and indeed had gone on misrepresenting Bekele's accomplishments in the ways I'd noted. One of them graciously did acknowledge those arguments eventually. All you've done so far, though, is say: 1) "maybe your arguments aren't as smart as you think they are" (a way of avoiding actually having to rebut them); 2) "I already accounted for these arguments in my original assessment" (again, a way of not having to rebut them); and 3) "the arguments were not 'compelling' and were beneath my notice and not worthy of a response" (which, I would submit, is at least as arrogant as anything I've expressed in this thread).

Wise Old Man wrote:

foggy bottom wrote:

This is a great question, and I've enjoyed your discussion of it with McRunnin. I suppose I would argue that Bekele's XC dominance is arguably as impressive as what Kipchoge has achieved in the marathon (those 4k and 12k back-to-back wins are about as unprecedented as Kipchoge's incredible achievements). But I like how you're suggesting a unique, interesting frame for comparing Bekele and Kipchoge.

Thank you. You sound as if you might be persuadable😉. Just imagine that EK runs Berlin this fall (that’s the rumor) and breaks the wr. In 2023 he runs and wins Boston and NY and sets the course record in the latter. To end his career, he wins his 3rd Olympic gold in Paris. None of this is beyond the ream of possible for Ek, but of course none of it may happen. Let’s say it did….what would you say now about EK v KB. Certainly what EK would have accomplished is by far the greatest accomplishments in his best event of any athlete in any event(s) by a wide margin. This titanic resume so overwhelms that we are left not simply to say he is the marathon goat, but the greatest runner of all time😊