Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Seems fine to me. VDOT says 17:45 is equivalent to 3:52/km HM/3:49/km T pace, once we account for the shoes you're running those 1km reps only a couple seconds/km slower than what's prescribed by the system, definitely not worth stressing about. If anything, the 3km reps might be a couple of seconds/km too fast if we're trying to run them at 30km pace (3:57 according to the calculator) in slower shoes. But again, if this feels fine in terms of RPE and recovery, I wouldn't think there's any need to change anything.

Gonna agree with this guy; the reps do feel strangely easy if you’re coming from a background of Daniels’-style workouts. The HR, the pace, the lactate tests are all simply proxies for your body’s master effort level, which is your feel, which I think many on this thread may forget. If you feel comfortable, do it right there.

Stayed up late trying to get this one completed. Sirpoc said he planned a secret speed workout today and needed to know how much volume to do to match the TSS from his normal tempo sessions, to keep his CTL steady. Hope he throws in a free pair of vaporfly 3's for the effort haha

Joking aside, if you're a fan of TSS or curious to explore it, this should be helpful. You can calculate TSS for different style workouts or compare different workouts based on a goal TSS.

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TSS Workout Calculator.xlsx

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Link:www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/elgv6lb6zvtdsx3...

I haven't used your calculators yet but they look awesome. One question - if you switch from mi to km, in some places they still show pace in mins/mi (e.g. Compare Equivalent Workouts Based on Goal TSS in this sheet). Am I reading it wrong or is it something that could be changed?

No, you're right. That's probably something I'll change. My assumption was that people would select miles or kilometers for their units to display pace and not really change it. So, that's an error on my part haha

However, if you do change, the paces in the drop down list will update in the list, just not automatically in the cell. So, you do need to go back to the cell and select the pace in the new unit. Sorry about that.

I really wasn't sure how interested people would be, but as I told one person who emailed me, I've got a few more ideas I'd like to put together and depending on feedback, modify the projects and compile everything in one file for people to access.

You're doing God's work sir. Looking forward to get stuck in.

I am about 4 weeks into this and have some observations:

- I started out on the conservative side of the pace range and have moved up about 5 seconds/mile in these 4 weeks. I was doing mile/2km repeats in about 5:35/mi, kms at 5:25/mi, and 400s at 5:15/mi. These are now about 5:30/5:20/5:10 at the exact same effort

- I have felt GREAT pretty much in every session since I started and my legs haven’t had the faintest inkling of an injury. The paces feel very controlled and I have zero soreness after the sessions or the next day.

- perhaps the most interesting observation is that my heart rate on easy days has actually been HIGHER than before by about 5 bpm for the same pace. I would normally be concerned about this but I’ve felt so good on the quality days that I would hypothesize that previously I had a harder time getting my HR up on easy days because the hard days were so much harder and I was always on the verge of overtraining. Anyone else experience this?

Has anybody else noticed how Klecker and some of the other OAC guys are doing these style of workouts? I think Dathan might be peeking this thread lol

This is purely observational, but the last couple of reps of my threshold workouts seem to have a lower hr (3-5 bpm) compared to the other reps. Has anyone else experienced this?

That should happen as a sign of improved fitness (assuming running at identical pace).

I could be mistaken l, but I think he meant in the same workout. This just means, at minimum, you're above the first threshold and, since it's only 3-5 beats (if you're interested, look into VO2 Slow Component), most likely under the second threshold. In other words, whether it's jiggy or me that's right, you are doing things right and getting fitter!

Is the rest period basically calculated from the speed of the rep and the distance of the rep? If I was doing 400 meter reps in 3m30s, would the rest be about 1/2 of the rep time? Your example of 85 seconds running to 40 seconds rest is what I'm basing this question on.

I have digested the lactate management/science for about a year and then this found this thread and it pushed me over the top to try it. Before this I was doing lots of easy volume. I am trying doing this with zero tracking of pace, HR, lactate, distance, no Strava or anything. I only track my weight and race times and dictate a short account of each run to Apple Notes. I use all my bodies internal sensors and try to stay in the right range entirely based on the Borg scale and talk test and just my own judgment and discipline.

I live in Colorado and run in the mountains a lot and flat, and all kinds in between.
I follow a 5 day cycle an so I don’t associate running with monotony of week and because there are 5 fingers on my hand and I keep track that way. I run every day for joy and nature time mostly.

Day 1 - Easy, 40-60 mins
Day 2 - Sub threshold light, "ballet" day (I love ballet), I work on a very light cadence, listen to no music and push into zone 2+ to very light zone 3. Recover once in a while via jogging. Afternoon upper body strength of pull-ups, pushups dips, etc..
Day 3 - Long run in mountains, or not, just trying to get through the distance as slowly as possible.
Day 4 - Easy day, 1hr-ish, afternoon strength
Day 5 - Sub threshold intervals of a few minutes long to upbeat music punctuated by walks to some landmark for about a minute. I work on great form and staying strictly below anything hard. About 10k.

Planning to run a lot of 5ks and the Bolder Boulder 10k and see how I will do. I am pretty slow but want to break 20 in the 5k. 47 years old, lost 34 pounds last year via calorie counting (now I eat intuitively too).

After several cycles of this I feel amazing.

I really like your philosophy, specifically the no tech tracking. I stopped wearing my Garmin in favor of a simple analog watch after a stress fracture and have been loving the simplicity. It helps me to focus in on my pace and really dial in with my body, which is especially important for the subT workouts. I do use time, but I have to calculate my paces before I start my workout, which also helps to be disciplined. I did a 8x1k workout last week, and only looking at time at the end, my first 4 reps were 4:14,4:13,4:14,4:14.

Having a hell of a time with the blood lactate testing. Im in the US, got myself a lactate plus, and have been trying for 3 sessions to get reasonable data with no luck.

Ive got the procedure down, but essentially my readings are too low, I think. I clean my finger with an alcohol wipe, dry with clean napkin, lance, wipe away first droplet with clean napkin again, take sample... Getting nice looking droplets and no failed readings anymore, but they still seem off.

I ran a 6x1M session yesterday, starting a bit slower then my estimated HM pace, taking 2 measurements after every 2 reps (60s rest between reps, longer rest to get measurements (about 1.5-2 minutes).

7:15 per mile for first 2 reps -1.8mmol.L.

7:05 per mile next 2 reps, still 1.6-1.8mmol. Great, Im fitter than I suspected (so I thought)

6:50 per mile for 2 - Again, 1.8mmol/L. Ok, something is off. HR was way above threshold here. Took another readings on other hand, 4.0mmol... very frustrating.

I thought once contaminated with sweat, you would end up with high readings. I am not sure what I am doing wrong to see lower than expected readings, or a difference hand to hand. So anyway, Ive ordered new lancets directly from the manufacturer, and their calibration fluid. Im quite sure I overran that workout yesterday though, feeling pretty gassed today. Maybe ill move to sampling at the quad.

Is it winter where you are? Was it cold when you did the workout and testing? The cold seems to have a decent impact on the results. Could be poor circulation. The device also does not work well in the cold (or if you leave it out in the sun).

It is, but I made a point of running the workouts mid day when the temperatures were in the low 60's, so hard to believe that is the issue.

Only thing I can think of is the lancet is not necessarily getting deep enough under the skin, or like you mention maybe my fingers have poorer circulation.

Hope the testing mishaps resolved themselves for you, that's a frustrating experience. Seems in my attempt to hit the weekly calculator quota, I timed this one appropriately haha. As the name suggests, this file will model your lactate test results, along with HR data from the test if you include that. You can also select lactate values and return the associated pace and heart rate from the curve.

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Lactate Test Calculator .xlsm

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Link:www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4udxpr4p2z0uxil...

Ahhh, your calculator is wrong. 2 and 4 mmol/l are completely arbitrary values. This is bad for several reeasons...but the main on is that your actate meter just isn't accurate enough. Go run at 4 mmol/l in two days and lets see what the paces are. Go run at 4 mmol/l for 30 minutes and see waht your lactate does.

Why not use this? Then you get ALL the arbitrary mathematical constructions for lactate. None of which are based in physiology. They're all math.

Best way to interpret lactate tests, when done properly, is a trilinear curve.