Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

bulog wrote:

I have been consistently following this method for the past 3 months. I had no races during that period, but 3 months ago I ran 2 half marathons, finishing in 1:22 and 1:23. My personal record (PR) was set 2 years ago at 1:19. After that, I focused on running 2 marathons and encountered a few injuries. Consequently, my speed in the half marathon distance dropped a bit, and I was struggling to return to a sub-1:20 half.
I slowly started implementing this training method since about September. I did lactate testing and was surprised right away by how much faster lactate accumulates than I thought, which required me to adjust my paces accordingly.
Most of my training was done on a treadmill since the weather has been poor here in the winter, and I work from 8 am to 5 pm, leaving no time for outdoor training during daylight hours. I began with 10x3-minute intervals at about 15.5 km/h, 6x5-minute intervals at 15 km/h and 10x3-minute intervals at 14.5 km/h. I successfully completed every workout and gradually increased my pace by 0.1 km/h each week. Currently, I am running at 16.4, 15.9, and 15.4 km/h. Every third week, I reduced the volume to about 70-80%, akin to a recovery week. Long run 60-90min. Now, my normal weeks consist of approximately 85 km of running, with easier weeks around 60 km. Additionally, I incorporate Zwift bike rides—easy lower zone 2 training—about 3-6 times a week, lasting 40-60 minutes, as I recover without any issues in time. On easy days when I feel fresh, I also added 6 short strides on the treadmill, lasting about 15-30 seconds, to work on a bit of top-end speed at 18 km/h with a 9% incline.
I've been using a Sole treadmill for workouts, and it seems to me that all the paces I've been running are significantly faster. For instance, the 10-minute intervals I run on the treadmill at 15.4 km/h translate to easily running sub-3:40 per km outside.
On my recovery days, I run at about 130 bpm. In November, that pace was about 5:05 to 5:15 per km, and now it's about 4:30 per km.
I've tried following many plans before with mixed results, and this approach is the easiest to follow, and I recover much faster than ever before and feel much stronger.
Anyway, it seems to me like I could run a about 1:17 half marathon right now, and I have a race coming up this Sunday. I will report on the result.

pass the dutchie wrote:

He writes long posts because what he is sharing, is potentially significant shift in thinking for runners. This thread alone is littered with success stories following this approach. No made up BS like you come up with .You are out of your depth here Jan, leave the discussion to those who understand what is actually being talked about here. Move along, you will just get eaten alive in this thread. Your response clearly shows you have zero understanding of training models or even want is being discussed here.

Back to what sirpoc said, incredibly interesting. As say the big question is what transfer over to runners. There are now almost 200 guys in Strava group from this thread alone, it would be good if maybe over summer months we could try to collate all data somehow. As long as people are tracking stuff accurately as possible like thread suggests, maybe Hard2find seems like the guy that could plot all the data on the relationships between load, CTL and some sort of threshold we agree on? Even if it's just 5k performance or something to keep standardised. It really does seem like the the average cyclists bookkeeping in looking into this for time crunched is factor here. Power I think easier metric to track.

following as well wrote:

bulog wrote:

I have been consistently following this method for the past 3 months. I had no races during that period, but 3 months ago I ran 2 half marathons, finishing in 1:22 and 1:23. My personal record (PR) was set 2 years ago at 1:19. After that, I focused on running 2 marathons and encountered a few injuries. Consequently, my speed in the half marathon distance dropped a bit, and I was struggling to return to a sub-1:20 half.
I slowly started implementing this training method since about September. I did lactate testing and was surprised right away by how much faster lactate accumulates than I thought, which required me to adjust my paces accordingly.
Most of my training was done on a treadmill since the weather has been poor here in the winter, and I work from 8 am to 5 pm, leaving no time for outdoor training during daylight hours. I began with 10x3-minute intervals at about 15.5 km/h, 6x5-minute intervals at 15 km/h and 10x3-minute intervals at 14.5 km/h. I successfully completed every workout and gradually increased my pace by 0.1 km/h each week. Currently, I am running at 16.4, 15.9, and 15.4 km/h. Every third week, I reduced the volume to about 70-80%, akin to a recovery week. Long run 60-90min. Now, my normal weeks consist of approximately 85 km of running, with easier weeks around 60 km. Additionally, I incorporate Zwift bike rides—easy lower zone 2 training—about 3-6 times a week, lasting 40-60 minutes, as I recover without any issues in time. On easy days when I feel fresh, I also added 6 short strides on the treadmill, lasting about 15-30 seconds, to work on a bit of top-end speed at 18 km/h with a 9% incline.
I've been using a Sole treadmill for workouts, and it seems to me that all the paces I've been running are significantly faster. For instance, the 10-minute intervals I run on the treadmill at 15.4 km/h translate to easily running sub-3:40 per km outside.
On my recovery days, I run at about 130 bpm. In November, that pace was about 5:05 to 5:15 per km, and now it's about 4:30 per km.
I've tried following many plans before with mixed results, and this approach is the easiest to follow, and I recover much faster than ever before and feel much stronger.
Anyway, it seems to me like I could run a about 1:17 half marathon right now, and I have a race coming up this Sunday. I will report on the result.

Nice post. I have been following since almost the start of sirpoc introduction to this thread, have had good results. However, I struggle to see progress when I use the treadmill almost exclusively then translate it to outside? I wonder why this is? I know there are a million treadmill settings but doesn't seem to be how I set it up, but when I then run outside I suck. Now I go outside when the weather has been better lately to train, it seems to translate better to then when I race outside. Just a small observation, maybe all TSS indoors versus out isn't equal for the same workout? Does anyone know if this is why sirpoc runs always outside? I mean I've seen the dude run on all weathers on Strava, it's kinda of crazy when I'm guessing he could incorporate treadmill if he wanted. Overall I've massively improved via this method in the bigger picture, so isn't a moan just an observation.

CHill Runs wrote:

There's a big difference between claiming to "invent training" and inventing a method (which is what this is). For distance running one could argue that Lydiard invented proper training and coaches followed up with methods. Training is big picture, methods are the details.

Lydiard had his athletes run steady at around MP for much of their training. Hicham el Guerrouj did a large volume of LT in base through regular steady runs. Other posters observed the similarity to HADD and Easy Interval Method or even Maffetone. Kenyan fartleks/ progression runs could be seen as another method of accumulating LT volume at various paces. I think it was Marius Bakken who observed that Kenyans have a much more natural ability than most to notice and stay under their threshold. He hypothesized that growing up at altitude made these athletes more sensitive to internal load. My favorite running article of all time is John Kellogg's . He talks about how athletes doing these kinds of high end aerobic runs can see great gains and can repeat 3-4 times a week for much of the year. Sounds familiar....

Link:www.letsrun.com/2005/jkfitness.php

The thing is, runners like me will over do all of the types of training above! So the benefit of this method is the control you get through measurement and doing the LT in intervals.

This is for hobby joggers. If you are a cross country or track athlete and the success of your season is determined by one performance, you may want to do something different in terms of peaking. But for us hobby joggers, this singles method of year round base building with semi-frequent 5k-HM races, all while feeling fresh, staying consistent, and getting PRs- IS THE DREAM!

CHill Runs wrote:

Mary had a little lamb wrote:

Norwegian method, oh my, what a bunch of sheep. You're telling me, that a country invented sensible training, and it happened recently?

There's a big difference between claiming to "invent training" and inventing a method (which is what this is). For distance running one could argue that Lydiard invented proper training and coaches followed up with methods. Training is big picture, methods are the details.

Lydiard had his athletes run steady at around MP for much of their training. Hicham el Guerrouj did a large volume of LT in base through regular steady runs. Other posters observed the similarity to HADD and Easy Interval Method or even Maffetone. Kenyan fartleks/ progression runs could be seen as another method of accumulating LT volume at various paces. I think it was Marius Bakken who observed that Kenyans have a much more natural ability than most to notice and stay under their threshold. He hypothesized that growing up at altitude made these athletes more sensitive to internal load. My favorite running article of all time is John Kellogg's . He talks about how athletes doing these kinds of high end aerobic runs can see great gains and can repeat 3-4 times a week for much of the year. Sounds familiar....

Link:www.letsrun.com/2005/jkfitness.php

The thing is, runners like me will over do all of the types of training above! So the benefit of this method is the control you get through measurement and doing the LT in intervals.

This is for hobby joggers. If you are a cross country or track athlete and the success of your season is determined by one performance, you may want to do something different in terms of peaking. But for us hobby joggers, this singles method of year round base building with semi-frequent 5k-HM races, all while feeling fresh, staying consistent, and getting PRs- IS THE DREAM!

CHill Runs wrote:

Mary had a little lamb wrote:

Norwegian method, oh my, what a bunch of sheep. You're telling me, that a country invented sensible training, and it happened recently?

There's a big difference between claiming to "invent training" and inventing a method (which is what this is). For distance running one could argue that Lydiard invented proper training and coaches followed up with methods. Training is big picture, methods are the details.

Lydiard had his athletes run steady at around MP for much of their training. Hicham el Guerrouj did a large volume of LT in base through regular steady runs. Other posters observed the similarity to HADD and Easy Interval Method or even Maffetone. Kenyan fartleks/ progression runs could be seen as another method of accumulating LT volume at various paces. I think it was Marius Bakken who observed that Kenyans have a much more natural ability than most to notice and stay under their threshold. He hypothesized that growing up at altitude made these athletes more sensitive to internal load. My favorite running article of all time is John Kellogg's . He talks about how athletes doing these kinds of high end aerobic runs can see great gains and can repeat 3-4 times a week for much of the year. Sounds familiar....

Link:www.letsrun.com/2005/jkfitness.php

LetsDoIt! wrote:

Hard2Find wrote:

I like where you're going with this idea! I've proposed to the guys that we use the Norwegian Strava group to crowd source funds for a VO2 Master, define the test protocol, then begin shipping it between those who contributed (non-contributors get charged a test fee haha) to collect data and build our own model. Since we are international, we can pool the shipping cost amongst the group as well... along with the cost of sanitizing wipes LOL

More seriously though, if everyone was willing to agree to some level of consistency and protocol, what you describe regarding training distribution, CTL and performance would be a fun and potentially informative undertaking.

Good luck with the VO2Master. It’s not really that accurate. None of the portable carts seem to be. Even my more expensive portable metabolic cart can be pretty inaccurate if you aren’t painstakingly careful with QA and calibration. Honestly, the Cooper Test would serve you better.

bulog wrote:

I have been consistently following this method for the past 3 months. I had no races during that period, but 3 months ago I ran 2 half marathons, finishing in 1:22 and 1:23. My personal record (PR) was set 2 years ago at 1:19. After that, I focused on running 2 marathons and encountered a few injuries. Consequently, my speed in the half marathon distance dropped a bit, and I was struggling to return to a sub-1:20 half.
I slowly started implementing this training method since about September. I did lactate testing and was surprised right away by how much faster lactate accumulates than I thought, which required me to adjust my paces accordingly.
Most of my training was done on a treadmill since the weather has been poor here in the winter, and I work from 8 am to 5 pm, leaving no time for outdoor training during daylight hours. I began with 10x3-minute intervals at about 15.5 km/h, 6x5-minute intervals at 15 km/h and 10x3-minute intervals at 14.5 km/h. I successfully completed every workout and gradually increased my pace by 0.1 km/h each week. Currently, I am running at 16.4, 15.9, and 15.4 km/h. Every third week, I reduced the volume to about 70-80%, akin to a recovery week. Long run 60-90min. Now, my normal weeks consist of approximately 85 km of running, with easier weeks around 60 km. Additionally, I incorporate Zwift bike rides—easy lower zone 2 training—about 3-6 times a week, lasting 40-60 minutes, as I recover without any issues in time. On easy days when I feel fresh, I also added 6 short strides on the treadmill, lasting about 15-30 seconds, to work on a bit of top-end speed at 18 km/h with a 9% incline.
I've been using a Sole treadmill for workouts, and it seems to me that all the paces I've been running are significantly faster. For instance, the 10-minute intervals I run on the treadmill at 15.4 km/h translate to easily running sub-3:40 per km outside.
On my recovery days, I run at about 130 bpm. In November, that pace was about 5:05 to 5:15 per km, and now it's about 4:30 per km.
I've tried following many plans before with mixed results, and this approach is the easiest to follow, and I recover much faster than ever before and feel much stronger.
Anyway, it seems to me like I could run a about 1:17 half marathon right now, and I have a race coming up this Sunday. I will report on the result.