Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Norwegian Singles Approach on Strava

Noah,

I appreciate the update and your comments and insights generally. Would be curious how you structure your long runs and what paces you run on them. Do you do a continuous run at a certain intensity, or something different?

I want to try this style of training too. How would you transition into race specific work? I run the 800 and 1500, sometimes 3000. Will the subthresh take away the snap? Should i keep some hills or sprints?

I’m pretty flexible with it, because I do some solo and some with a group.

If solo, I’ve done a consistent but not taxing pace (7:15-7:40) for the first part of the run before a 4-5 mile continuous, progressively faster segment at faster than MP (6:20-6:40). The pace is below HMP or what I would do in a long threshold. Cooldown of 1-3 miles done at moderate pace.

Running with a group, often less flexibility but I’d prefer to run a slightly faster tempo overall 7:10-7:25) with a faster finish than start if possible (6:45-7:05).

I think these runs end up being a little different and more specific to the marathon than the Norwegian method of course. From my experience, outside of getting the valuable time on feet and practice for fueling/marathon distance etc., they build a nice comfort running at MP (for raceday) though rarely dialing into the exact effort/pace.

Id say my training might be best suited for 5K-HM but my last marathon I felt extremely comfortable in despite bad conditions. I am not all-in on a time in my marathon running really though maybe that changes for Boston. And getting ready for the mile only requires a few specific workouts (hills/speed), and honestly some prep races can do the trick as well. Nordas has said that and I agree. So to the poster directly above I’d say hills (I do 12x200 w/ jog down rest), a speed workout or two (4-3-2 sets, good rest) and some prep races. For the mile/3k I think you’d be all set. I ran under 4:50 at 5th Ave on a short buildup with that. We’ll see if with a real summer I can go sub-4;40 and perhaps sub-17. The 800 is a different matter for me requiring a little more specificity.

Does anyone know if a podcast came out of this in the end? I figured it would have been posted but just checking in case I missed it. Big fan of the thread, will add to the number who would love this in an audio format. It's simple yet really complicated, almost like a paradox. I guess it can be as basic as you want or really dive deep into what sirpoc has also gone into and put that icing on cake, with really making sure you get every percentage you can.

Someone mentioned conversations about running? That seems like a great idea. I loved those guys previous Norwegian episodes and in my eyes this is more relevant probably to the majority of their listeners who are not pros and also way slower than sirpoc. I know I would listen to it anyway 😊. Just a thought as an onlooker. Could even be someone listens to another pod they think this would fit in with and send as a listener suggestion? At the end of the day, on the podcast circuit we seem to get a lot of the same stuff over and over this would be really new and fresh.

+ 1 for another listener here if someone can get sirpoc on. I think it be really good as well. Make happen.

Quick question - 2:55 marathon training. Keep the long runs slow (I have been jogging all my regular runs at 8-10 minute miles) or aim for a faster pace?

I guess the question is how much quality running are you currently doing? If you are doing 2 days of threshold, I think you can run your long run at a faster clip and add in some faster segments. If you are doing 3 days, that is a hefty amount of work and if you run your long run faster you are pushing it.

I have read a good portion of the start of this thread but don't want to go through every page. Would you guys say there is anything good or helpful in any way past page 20? I haven't seen anything lately.

Page 60 i think has a great post by someone named Summary :)

Alright guys, I've been loosely trying to follow this training method but I am probably doing it all wrong. I ran a parkrun this morning in 18:29 which I was very disappointed with (it also felt like a struggle from the start) and I had been hoping to equal my pb of around 17:50. I've been consistently running 35 mpw since November and a typical workout was 8x1k at 6:15(ish) pace, sometimes faster, sometimes 6:20. The pace of my regular runs has been 8:30-9:30 on average. I had been feeling quite fit and well recovered going into this mornings parkrun so I am disappointed.

I think one of the reasons this has been such an insightful discussion for many is that this method produces fantastic results in a commonsense way, YET flies in the face of foundational training philosophies. There have been several in disbelief of the results achieved. I think behind their troll appearance may be genuine questions of WHY this works.

Like Summary shared, here was a great post around page 60 summarizing what this training methodology IS, and I think it would also be fruitful to summarize what this is NOT and WHY. Below are common training ideas that are challenged in this approach. Note that these comments are for 5k-HM not the Marathon, which is a different beast.

Periodization: No up weeks or down weeks. No weeks with shifting focus. No peaking.
Just settle into your maximum sustainable training load and repeat. This not only works for hobby joggers from this thread, but also for the elites coach by Grete Koens. Perhaps periodization is an engineered way to handle a training system that inherently tears you down more than it builds you up?

Progressive Overload: The workouts do not need to progress for you to progress. There will be a ceiling to this approach, but it will take a surprisingly long time and will take you much higher than other approaches. There is a progression, but it looks more like season over season rather than week over week.

Variety: Variety is overrated (and helps coaches keep their jobs). Running is simple. A 5k is 95-99% an aerobic event. Variety works in fields like investing because there is no way to know for certain what will pay off. But in running, we know what trains the aerobic system with little cost: easy running and sub threshold running. In this case, the best investment strategy is going all in what we know works FOR THE LEAST COST.

Specificity: This is a big one. Perhaps a good way of looking at this methodology is that the quality of a session is determined by how little recovery time it costs you, rather than how strong the stimulus is in preparing you for the event. Adaptations take a long time,
so any stimulus will need to be highly repeatable for it to have any effect. To stimulate the demands of an event there will need to be ample recover, resulting in lower overall training load due to needed recovery time. Better to keep aerobic load high and humming along, and just freshen up as needed before events. Grete Koens does this approach for her elites as well. She says that the 1 specific session before a major event are more to convince the athlete they can perform, rather than any underlying physiology. Training at 5k
pace consistently WILL make you more efficient at 5k pace—however, it will cost
you. And it’s the cost that matters in the long term (injury/ overall training load).
Also, racing fairly frequently helps with performance. Often, a 5k race is less taxing than a 5k specific session!

Speed Training: I love strides. I’m surprised that KI and Spiroc don’t do
them. But it makes sense, because the likelihood that speed is the limiting
factor for hobbyjoggers like me is very low. We are all aerobically undertrained, and no amount of short speed will make up for that.

I hope this helps summarize what this training is NOT. I'd love to hear y'alls thoughts!

That's what, 55km a week? Are you following this as set out? As if you are doing 3 lots of 8x1k that is an awful lot of work. You might be fried. Check out the Strava group. Some guy has made a spreadsheet of how much work you should be doing , based on sirpoc amazing posts. I think you really need to have a look at this. Remember , 3 sub threshold workouts seems to be the key to this system in accumulation of as much weekly tss as we can. As sirpoc posted a few pages back, there isn't anything inherently special about what he set out, it will just likely be the best makeup for someone time crunched and looking to maximise load but still recover suitable to just keep repeating. This is incredibly simple yet actually quite complicated all at the same time. So I will throw my weight behind it would be good to get sirpoc on a podcast for someone to ask the right questions and really drill down and lay this out from start to finish.

Hey stuckon18, sorry to hear that. Is that the milage range you were in when you ran your PB? How much time are you running a week and what % is SubT?

Another vote for a podcast! Who do we need to talk to to make this happen?!?

I enjoyed this post. As I said above, the thing I think overlooked is as sirpoc said when he popped up in the thread again lately, there's nothing actually special about this, other than he's thinking of it outside the box more like a cyclist and just applying it to another aerobic sport. I found it incredibly interesting of how he found CTL marry up closer to power, no matter what the training makeup. The variation in that seems to exist, but likely small.

It would be great if anyone could answer as to why sirpoc and KI don't do strides, other than the answer of "they just don't do strides" . Again, this is a huge deviation away from the norm. But, following the two on Strava , they don't ever run very fast in training really and then it has no negative effect on race day. In fact sirpoc has probably the best equivalent times from 5k , 10k, 10 mile and HM all within a couple of months. They are all almost all within a few seconds of each other. Which also shows fantastic pacing if you look at his race splits but also that specificity itself appears to be irrelevant, for a hobby jogger just looking to improve overall in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't appear sirpoc in particular is slowing down anytime soon, he will soon surely break 16

Anyway, I enjoyed the post although now I think I have moved quite away from your interesting points.

Hey thread voyeur, I'd love to hear that too. Why is KI's coach, with his extensive knowledge, choosing not to do strides? I get it if you don't like them. But when done correctly they are very in line with this underlying philosophy: get the training adaptations at the least cost.

andrewskurka.com

From ultra(slow) runner to 2:3X marathoner || Training methodology, with coach David Roche

Andrew Skurka

How does an ultra runner accustomed to 100-mile weeks at 10-min/mile pace transform into a 2:3X road marathoner? Interview with David Roche.

Link:andrewskurka.com/david-roche-interview...

I really enjoyed this blog post from a while back showing how strides transformed a very aerobically trained trail runner. Perhaps one of the reasons strides worked for Andrew Skurka, and may not be needed for Spiroc and KI, is the terrain they train in? Skurka coming from a train background was not efficient for fast road running. But KI and Spiroc's training is pretty much all on roads or treadmill (not Spiroc lol), meaning they are may be getting enough practice on flat/fast terrain?

Also, we know that there are diminishing returns with everything, so strides are likely more important the shorter the race...But again, there are many coach who feel strongly that top end speed is important even for marathon/ ultras!

Enjoying the new life you are bringing to this thread. Interesting thoughts I have been reading .I really like your approach to what this training is not, rather than maybe what it is.

As for pods, I'm sure we all listen to good podcasts? Why don't we send out listener ideas of where we think this will fit. Personally I like the idea of the guys at conversations about running. They are also Brits like sirpoc and I think that would make a really good listen. But can't be the only pod.

The key Qs :

-how many workouts per week are you doing?

-8xK is heavy for just 35mpw, so only 27 miles over the other 6 days when factoring in warmup/cooldown?

-I think off the bat I’d say shorten this to 6xK or 5x1200 and add in a shorter threshold workout in the week (5k worth of 400s, 500s, 600s). Keep the intensity in check on these but with 1’ rest you will run quicker.

-Also sub in or introduce hills (10-12x200m jog down), probably good to have a set break halfway through!

It's hard to take this thread seriously, when I log onto the Strava group and see sirpoc thinking 90 mins is a long run. Absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe nobody has mentioned this properly yet. No wonder his 5k is better than his HM. Maybe you can get away with this on 5ks. But how do you expect to run a HM on 90 min long run at his slow paces a week? I am a average to good runner, 1:22 , even i am running longer and faster on my weekly long run.

Method to the madness, or just madness or lack of running knowledge?