The Shroud of Turin has been radio carbon dated to having been produced sometime around the 13th or 14th Century.
That carbon date has been widely disputed and the method is flawed when you're dealing with an object that has mold spores and modern repairs all over it.
There's plenty of evidence that it was an oral tradition culture. I'm not aware of any evidence that suggests all of the locals that JC was hanging out with were literate at all let alone literate in Greek.
History is limited to the evidence that survives. Papyrus not surviving 2000 years in a war torn region isn't very surprising.
The veracity of the gospels has absolutely nothing to do with when or what language they were written down in.
Something obviously happened because it changed the world and hundreds of millions of people converted without violence.
Whether the tomb was empty or not the people spreading the story believed it was true.
What happened was Theodosius I made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire in 380. As recently as 80 years prior to that, only about 5% of the Empire was Christian. But once it had official status within the Empire, the early church began to take in a lot of money and grew in power. Quickly, it was the pagans who were getting persecuted for not being Christians and that led to most of the Empire converting to Christianity before too long. That’s how it became the dominant religion in Europe and when those European states colonized other parts of the world and stamped out local culture, they brought their religion with them. That’s how we ended up with 2 billion Christians today.
The empire was persecuting and trying to stamp out Christianity long before 380 and Christianity was spreading despite it being a death sentence if you got caught.
Emperor Constantine ended the persecution and converted to Christianity in 312. He made it legal to be a Christian in the empire and magically Christianity spread even faster.
That carbon date has been widely disputed and the method is flawed when you're dealing with an object that has mold spores and modern repairs all over it.
every serious scientific examination points to this being a medieval forgery pretty conclusively. honestly, this isn't even difficult.
They have no idea how it was made. Every study that's ever been done admits this.
Dismissing studies you didn't read and wouldn't even understand if you did is just lazy.
ha! you're damn straight it's lazy. dismissing any crackpot theories as junk science about something that's fringe as hell is certainly lazy. it's the kind of lazy we all engage in to separate wheat from chaff of everyday life. Shroud of Turin absolutely fits in that category, and i don't have to read any of your sketchy links to know this.
They have no idea how it was made. Every study that's ever been done admits this.
Dismissing studies you didn't read and wouldn't even understand if you did is just lazy.
ha! you're damn straight it's lazy. dismissing any crackpot theories as junk science about something that's fringe as hell is certainly lazy. it's the kind of lazy we all engage in to separate wheat from chaff of everyday life. Shroud of Turin absolutely fits in that category, and i don't have to read any of your sketchy links to know this.
ha! you're damn straight it's lazy. dismissing any crackpot theories as junk science about something that's fringe as hell is certainly lazy. it's the kind of lazy we all engage in to separate wheat from chaff of everyday life. Shroud of Turin absolutely fits in that category, and i don't have to read any of your sketchy links to know this.
No one knows. It's silly to pretend that you do.
look, dude. you bring this up because you are obviously intimating that it provides some tangible evidence of the existence of, and subsequent sentence and crucifixion of jesus. That's an extraordinary claim, and requires extraordinary evidence. As it turns out, much of that evidence (dating of the fabric, testing of the paint materials, comparison to other 1st CE near east fabrics) has been examined and found seriously lacking. it's pretty conclusive. in the face of that, you keep wanting to dig for any straw to grasp. now who's being silly?
look, dude. you bring this up because you are obviously intimating that it provides some tangible evidence of the existence of, and subsequent sentence and crucifixion of jesus. That's an extraordinary claim, and requires extraordinary evidence. As it turns out, much of that evidence (dating of the fabric, testing of the paint materials, comparison to other 1st CE near east fabrics) has been examined and found seriously lacking. it's pretty conclusive. in the face of that, you keep wanting to dig for any straw to grasp. now who's being silly?
I didn't bring up the shroud Jeff did.
You need papal permission to get near the shroud let alone remove pieces of it for testing.
It was carbon dated once in 1988 and the results are disputed.
You guys know I'm a fairly intelligent person, and even I can't comprehend what was before the big bang.
We are currently living within a “white hole” scientific theory postulates that everytime a gravitational black hole forms within the universe it creates a new dimension of space/time which is completely cut off from viewers within the particular universe within which it was formed. By definition a black hole is a point of infinite mass and density and physics as we know it breaks down beyond the event horizon. Current theory postulates that every black hole “explodes” into a new universe with its own unique space/time continuum. By definition this ensures it cannot be observed by any observers outside of this “new universe” so instead of one universe there are literally millions of unique and unrelated universes expanding independently of one another with no way in which they can interact with each other….
You guys know I'm a fairly intelligent person, and even I can't comprehend what was before the big bang.
We are currently living within a “white hole” scientific theory postulates that everytime a gravitational black hole forms within the universe it creates a new dimension of space/time which is completely cut off from viewers within the particular universe within which it was formed. By definition a black hole is a point of infinite mass and density and physics as we know it breaks down beyond the event horizon. Current theory postulates that every black hole “explodes” into a new universe with its own unique space/time continuum. By definition this ensures it cannot be observed by any observers outside of this “new universe” so instead of one universe there are literally millions of unique and unrelated universes expanding independently of one another with no way in which they can interact with each other….
I can't wrap my little brain around the concept of space and time not existing.
"Before the Big Bang," like "outside the universe," is a phrase literally without meaning.
Or as someone else in the thread put it, like asking "what is north of the North Pole".
This *might* be true. But it's also possible that the Big Bang wasn't the beginning, and other things happened first. We just don't know.
We can see images of the early universe using powerful telescopes, and when we trace things back as far as we can see (~13.7 billion years), we see that the universe was very hot, very dense, and rapidly expanding and cooling. We can extrapolate that back a bit further, towards a moment we call the 'big bang' at which the universe would be arbitrarily hot and dense and our theories break down. Our theories work quite well for the present day and most of the history of the universe, but the closer you get to the big bang the more speculative it becomes.
Sometimes people treat 'what happened before the Big Bang' like some sort of gotcha or unanswerable question, which is weird. But it's a mistake to respond that this question doesn't have an answer - it might or it might not! We just don't know yet.
(Caveat - not really my field; I've been out of grad school for a couple of decades and my work was in biophysics.)
What happened was Theodosius I made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire in 380. As recently as 80 years prior to that, only about 5% of the Empire was Christian. But once it had official status within the Empire, the early church began to take in a lot of money and grew in power. Quickly, it was the pagans who were getting persecuted for not being Christians and that led to most of the Empire converting to Christianity before too long. That’s how it became the dominant religion in Europe and when those European states colonized other parts of the world and stamped out local culture, they brought their religion with them. That’s how we ended up with 2 billion Christians today.
The empire was persecuting and trying to stamp out Christianity long before 380 and Christianity was spreading despite it being a death sentence if you got caught.
Emperor Constantine ended the persecution and converted to Christianity in 312. He made it legal to be a Christian in the empire and magically Christianity spread even faster.
It’s a proselytizing religion with an attractive selling point for the era: life may be miserable now but if you do what the church says, there’s a paradise waiting for you after you die. That sounds a lot better than living in the Underworld with Pluto. Add to that, Christianity (and its denominations) is one of the few religions where proselytizing is a major tradition.
I’m not sure how you can imply that Christianity must be correct given the speed with which it became the dominant religion in Europe. It had its selling points and then it quickly became more convenient to become a Christian than to stay an outsider during that final century of the Roman Empire.
We are currently living within a “white hole” scientific theory postulates that everytime a gravitational black hole forms within the universe it creates a new dimension of space/time which is completely cut off from viewers within the particular universe within which it was formed. By definition a black hole is a point of infinite mass and density and physics as we know it breaks down beyond the event horizon. Current theory postulates that every black hole “explodes” into a new universe with its own unique space/time continuum. By definition this ensures it cannot be observed by any observers outside of this “new universe” so instead of one universe there are literally millions of unique and unrelated universes expanding independently of one another with no way in which they can interact with each other….
I can't wrap my little brain around the concept of space and time not existing.
On this we can agree. It’s so difficult to conceptualize. For me, it’s similar trying to conceptualize not being alive. No dreaming, no thinking, just not existing anymore. The best answer I’ve heard is, “it will probably be very much like how it was for you before you were born.”
In any case, Adult, I want to say that despite the incredibly enormous gulf between our political views and world perspectives, I do appreciate a respectful discussion with people who think very differently than me. I hope the running is going well and that you and your family have a great Christmas.
The empire was persecuting and trying to stamp out Christianity long before 380 and Christianity was spreading despite it being a death sentence if you got caught.
Emperor Constantine ended the persecution and converted to Christianity in 312. He made it legal to be a Christian in the empire and magically Christianity spread even faster.
It’s a proselytizing religion with an attractive selling point for the era: life may be miserable now but if you do what the church says, there’s a paradise waiting for you after you die. That sounds a lot better than living in the Underworld with Pluto. Add to that, Christianity (and its denominations) is one of the few religions where proselytizing is a major tradition.
I’m not sure how you can imply that Christianity must be correct given the speed with which it became the dominant religion in Europe. It had its selling points and then it quickly became more convenient to become a Christian than to stay an outsider during that final century of the Roman Empire.
Yes, couple of other points too - not just the story christianity had to sell, but how it sold it. Pagans (a weird term, since there really isn't a "Pagan" religion to speak of) of the time in the hellenized world were already searching for more meaning and ate up any of the greek mysteries that packed enough punch and drama. christianity successfully re-branded itself as a mystery faith! christians became "one with christ" through the mystery of baptism and had secret knowledge of the kingdom of heaven others did not. couple this with the strong communal nature of christianity (a secret society, where you commune weekly with others "in the know" about paradise) was pretty strong selling point. But, there were other competitors like mithraism which didn't succeed. Why christianity did and they did not is a really compelling question.
The empire was persecuting and trying to stamp out Christianity long before 380 and Christianity was spreading despite it being a death sentence if you got caught.
Emperor Constantine ended the persecution and converted to Christianity in 312. He made it legal to be a Christian in the empire and magically Christianity spread even faster.
It’s a proselytizing religion with an attractive selling point for the era: life may be miserable now but if you do what the church says, there’s a paradise waiting for you after you die. That sounds a lot better than living in the Underworld with Pluto. Add to that, Christianity (and its denominations) is one of the few religions where proselytizing is a major tradition.
I’m not sure how you can imply that Christianity must be correct given the speed with which it became the dominant religion in Europe. It had its selling points and then it quickly became more convenient to become a Christian than to stay an outsider during that final century of the Roman Empire.
Where did I say it was correct? You're certain it's wrong so all of your opinions are biased from the outset.
I don't believe the Bible is true or that Christianity is "correct". I simply believe the people who started it believed it.
It’s a proselytizing religion with an attractive selling point for the era: life may be miserable now but if you do what the church says, there’s a paradise waiting for you after you die. That sounds a lot better than living in the Underworld with Pluto. Add to that, Christianity (and its denominations) is one of the few religions where proselytizing is a major tradition.
I’m not sure how you can imply that Christianity must be correct given the speed with which it became the dominant religion in Europe. It had its selling points and then it quickly became more convenient to become a Christian than to stay an outsider during that final century of the Roman Empire.
Yes, couple of other points too - not just the story christianity had to sell, but how it sold it. Pagans (a weird term, since there really isn't a "Pagan" religion to speak of) of the time in the hellenized world were already searching for more meaning and ate up any of the greek mysteries that packed enough punch and drama. christianity successfully re-branded itself as a mystery faith! christians became "one with christ" through the mystery of baptism and had secret knowledge of the kingdom of heaven others did not. couple this with the strong communal nature of christianity (a secret society, where you commune weekly with others "in the know" about paradise) was pretty strong selling point. But, there were other competitors like mithraism which didn't succeed. Why christianity did and they did not is a really compelling question.
Very much agree with this. The sense of community is a big attraction for many people.
I can't wrap my little brain around the concept of space and time not existing.
On this we can agree. It’s so difficult to conceptualize. For me, it’s similar trying to conceptualize not being alive. No dreaming, no thinking, just not existing anymore. The best answer I’ve heard is, “it will probably be very much like how it was for you before you were born.”
In any case, Adult, I want to say that despite the incredibly enormous gulf between our political views and world perspectives, I do appreciate a respectful discussion with people who think very differently than me. I hope the running is going well and that you and your family have a great Christmas.
Well if annihilation is truly what happens it's probably just like a dreamless asleep.
I like to think there's something more.
I don't think the gulf is as big as it seems here. Threads don't get started on things people agree on because it's boring.
It’s a proselytizing religion with an attractive selling point for the era: life may be miserable now but if you do what the church says, there’s a paradise waiting for you after you die. That sounds a lot better than living in the Underworld with Pluto. Add to that, Christianity (and its denominations) is one of the few religions where proselytizing is a major tradition.
I’m not sure how you can imply that Christianity must be correct given the speed with which it became the dominant religion in Europe. It had its selling points and then it quickly became more convenient to become a Christian than to stay an outsider during that final century of the Roman Empire.
Where did I say it was correct? You're certain it's wrong so all of your opinions are biased from the outset.
I don't believe the Bible is true or that Christianity is "correct". I simply believe the people who started it believed it.
I’m as confident that it’s “wrong” as I am confident that the other 4000 religions here on Earth are all the product of men without divine intervention, because there’s no credible evidence for such contact.
On this we can agree. It’s so difficult to conceptualize. For me, it’s similar trying to conceptualize not being alive. No dreaming, no thinking, just not existing anymore. The best answer I’ve heard is, “it will probably be very much like how it was for you before you were born.”
In any case, Adult, I want to say that despite the incredibly enormous gulf between our political views and world perspectives, I do appreciate a respectful discussion with people who think very differently than me. I hope the running is going well and that you and your family have a great Christmas.
Well if annihilation is truly what happens it's probably just like a dreamless asleep.
I like to think there's something more.
I don't think the gulf is as big as it seems here. Threads don't get started on things people agree on because it's boring.
Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!
Fair point and thanks, Adult. It is genuinely appreciated.
Where did I say it was correct? You're certain it's wrong so all of your opinions are biased from the outset.
I don't believe the Bible is true or that Christianity is "correct". I simply believe the people who started it believed it.
I’m as confident that it’s “wrong” as I am confident that the other 4000 religions here on Earth are all the product of men without divine intervention, because there’s no credible evidence for such contact.
I agree on the religions but I don't think manmade religions all being obviously made up means there is no God.
I think the evidence for a creator is all around us.
I’m as confident that it’s “wrong” as I am confident that the other 4000 religions here on Earth are all the product of men without divine intervention, because there’s no credible evidence for such contact.
I agree on the religions but I don't think manmade religions all being obviously made up means there is no God.
I think the evidence for a creator is all around us.
The evidence against a creator is all around us. We see it in the verifiable processes of organic mutation and natural selection giving rise to evolution which neither require nor demonstrate the "invisible hand" of a divine creator. Science shows "He" isn't needed to produce what we see around us and everything that has happened since the Big Bang. Nor can it find his footprint - except in our imaginations.