Girls 800 National High School Champ Speaks Out About Transgenders in Sports

CrispyChicken wrote:

These two questions posed by Wise Old Man are really at the heart of the issue:

Do you believe trans people exist?

Do you believe somebody born with a penis can be a woman and somebody born with a vagina can be a man?

My answer would be that a trans woman is a trans woman. She is not a man, but not a cis woman, either. She is in a separate category from both of them. By saying this, I hope I am not stigmatizing trans people as "others."

IMHO, what trans women should demand is to be respected as trans women, not to be treated the same as cis women. If trans women are respected as trans women, then maybe fewer of them would try to "pass" as cis women. Right now, their lives would be so much easier if most people don't know they are trans.

In the sports context, creating trans only category could actually raise people's awareness for the issue. And trans athletes can be positive role models for trans kids who want to play sports. I think paralympic athletes inspire many disabled kids to participate in sports. And I don't think it is stigmatizing disabled people. Why should it be any different for trans people?

Wise Old Man wrote:

I want to ask you a very straight forward question. Do you believe trans people exist? To put it more bluntly, do you believe somebody born with a penis can be a woman and somebody born with a vagina can be a man?[/quote]

I believe that trans people exist in the sense that some people have taken hormones or had surgery to make their bodies more closely resemble those of the other sex and that they live in the social role of the other sex. In this case, trans refers to medical and social transition, not a preexisting state of being.

One cannot be born in the wrong body because we ARE our bodies. Obviously, some males are so feminine that they identify more with girls and women than with boys and men, but this does not MAKE them women. The same applies to masculine females.

The belief that one can be born in the wrong body is a mystical, secular religious belief, not a scientifically-verifiable state of existence.

Nearly every person who is religious doesn't believe that you can be born in the wrong body. Nearly everyone who claims that people can be born in the wrong body, claim to follow science. Amazing.

In liberal communities, trans identification and transition is on the rise. Another poster mentioned that trans identification has increased by ~1500% for biological females in several western countries in the last 10 years. It's slightly lower but still an enormous increase for biological males. This fact caused several western countries with national healthcare (which allows them to track visits to gender clinics) to reconsider their affirmative care models. I think Sweden and England (maybe Denmark, I'm too lazy to look right now) are among the countries that used to recommend childhood transition for kids with gender dysphoria. Affirmative care meant affirming a child's stated gender identity and sometimes stalling puberty with drugs.

Some worry that many of these kids are misidentifying the source of their suffering. Some may have experienced sexual trauma, have eating disorders and hate their bodies, have autism and don't understand why they feel different, or are simply gender non-conforming like many gay kids are in early childhood. Affirmative care means doing away with the gatekeeping mechanisms that might have identified non-gender related sources of distress.

The point about chidhood is somewhat different than the point about people transitioning for attention or affirmation but not entirely. A socially awkward kid on the autism spectrum might suddenly find himself with a new rainbow family showering him with the love and attention he always craved.

Adults with personality disorders often have an unstable sense of self and need constant external validation. A trans identity can give that person something to cling to in an attempt to cope with chronic feelings of emptiness. I'm thinking of people with borderline or narcissistic personalities. I'd say this group has contributed substantially to the number of trans-identifying adults today. I'd probably put Demi Lovato and Elliot Page in this category. These people may not even recognize what their motivations are. Have you heard about the handful of white women who identify as black or latina? I think these people probably have personality disorders. You'll also notice that a substantial proportion of them identify as some kind of trans. You might ask, why would somebody identify as black if racism exists in the world or as trans when trans people are abused. It's because they live in social environments that reward them in some way for taking up these identities. Several of the fake ethnic women worked at universities or in social change organizations.

It's possible that the rare psychopath here or there wants to go stealth because they want to deceive and exploit people. However, I'd guess that most of the stealth people are the very tiny proportion of people that would have transitioned even 20 years ago. They want to go about their business, not dismantle the social structure. It's personal for them, not political.

Again, I'm not sure how common this is, but I can say that I did not know a single trans person when I started grad school about 15 years ago. Now I have 1-2 trans students in nearly every class I teach. Most probably would have identified as lesbians a decade ago. Some have personality disorders, maybe 1/4. So, that leaves about 3/4 who see gender nonconformity as a sign that they are nonbinary or trans and 1/4 who are psychologically disturbed. Maybe 1 out of the bunch I've seen in the last decade would have transitioned prior to the spread of queer theory in social media.

In the recent past, gay men were characterized as suffering from narcissistic personality disorder because they had "fallen in love with a mirror of themselves".

It had as much credibility as your pop psychology speculation here.

Wise Old Man:

I appreciate your responses too. My daughter would not have quit because she loves running and is still competing now while having a successful career in a STEM field. I attribute the confidence gained through athletics enabling her to succeed as an adult. I don't think the fact that one of the best runners in the NCAA wouldn't be driven to quit the sport as a victory for inclusion of biological males. There would have been some really tough years if she was getting beat by a biological male, I'm sure it would've changed her as a person. You may judge that response, but I'm being honest.

You are willing to deny a trans girls very existence and told her identity isn't valued or believed in essence by being forced to compete with men in college. Does that stink? That is very dramatic language to put on a high school girl, but you are OK with it when that biological male gets to college? Once again I appreciate you helping me understand your position and why you feel this way.

The quote you shared I don't believe is applicable here. Do you believe we are showing the girls in the races dignity and respect? The gender divisions are there for a reason, a reason you have acknowledged. Just as I wouldn't compare my daughter's times with my son's and wouldn't show my daughter how many boys could beat her in the state to prove she's really not that good at running.

I think we can agree that the trans children need support and help. I'm not sure if we agree on what constitutes support. As a teacher I am supposed to affirm a 14 year old telling me they are transitioning, and by coincidence 3 of her friends are also transitioning? Before I am called a "flat-earther", yes there are a very small percentage of our population born in the wrong body, I can't accept this current contagion, especially when it is most prevalent amongst girls in the same friends' groups. If your 14-year old lost a lot of weight, was showing signs of anorexia, and she was telling you she was fat, you wouldn't agree and take her to a weight loss clinic. You would get her the help she needs. From what I have read it's almost impossible to find a professional to that is not first going to affirm the gender dysphoria. I am sharing this to let you know that sports is a small part of what I feel is a major issue., of which the adults are not making the correct decisions for the children.

I know I have gotten off of sports where our disagreement lies. That is because it's easy to throw out the words acceptance and inclusion, every human should be afforded this. Sports seems to be where most people struggle to reconcile this.

As for the example of my son in chorus, if there was a better Alto than him, that person should get the seat regardless of gender. The difference is when the girl walked into the chorus room she does not have a distinct advantage over all of the boys because she is a girl. You can not say the same about a XC team.

Ok, we have an irreconcilable difference and I’m not sure there is any chance of bridging the policy divide when we start out with such profoundly different views of the core issue. I believe transness is an actual state of being. It’s a core characteristic not defined or set by our bodies. We also have a sex and sometimes the gender and sex do not align, rarely, but both are core features of our being not under our discretion. Im not saying that sex and gender are not linked or totally independent, because if that was true we would have a lot more trans people, but I do not think sex dictates gender absolutely and immutably. A trans man is every bit the man that I am, though he may not have all the same sexual features. Some trans people choose to alter their body to try and match their sex state and gender state, but many do not, or only in part. Because I believe transness is a fundamental or essential state of being, I believe at baseline a trans person should be expected and afforded every right, privilege and opportunity associated with gender as anybody else of the same gender. People ask how do I know this to be true, and I would respond how do they know this to not be true? Is there really an onus on one party or the other to prove their point. I’d say it’s impossible either way. We have no way of sorting this out other than to ask the person in question. We must take this at self report. There can be abuses, people can lie, that’s true. I think if somebody does not see transness as a core characteristic, then there’s no reason to protect or empower, it’s just a bunch of men claiming to be women and vice versa.

Now onto the mess we are in. We’ve conflated sex and gender or used one as a surrogate for the other in every aspect of our lives, the culture, the legal system and our sporting culture. Should we have a system based solely on sex and not gender even if we acknowledge they are not the same? We still would have areas of ambiguity like DSD people. Should sex or gender be paramount when there is conflict? Many, most on these boards, argue that sex is paramount, at least as far as athletics are concerned. I guess when push comes to shove, I think gender is paramount and an even more of a core identifier that needs to honored and protected. If you don’t feel gender is a characteristic free of sex at all, there’s no way you’d agree. If you do, you might still think sex is more important in allocating rights, privileges, protections, but at least we can have a conversation about how to balance the gender versus sex concerns.

Ok, I say all this without any acrimony. I’m not calling anybody any names and apologize if I did before. I don’t have the answer to the dilemma. I wish I did. In our system in the USA, it will be up to our courts to sort this out.

Thank you again. I suspect we agree more than we disagree. I want my female daughter to have every opportunity for success and recognition. Your daughter sounds great. Mine is just starting her college running career as a freshman. She’s in her first track season and her first meet is next weekend! She missed xc as a freshman, but she should be running next year. She does not sound like she has the talent level of your daughter, but still she’s excited to see what she can do. She wanted to break 5 badly in HS but her entire senior track season was cancelled. I know there a lot of girls more talented, but still running around 5 min in the 1600 out her ahead of 2/3-3/4 of the boys on her team.

Ok, I 100% agree we are in the midst of this gender non conformity explosion. I also agree that much of what is going on is cultural and political. The problem is that there is a tiny core of trans people of the kind I reference in the post above who should be acknowledged and how to sort this out is very problematic. I’m not sure we can. It’s interesting times for sure.

Ok, I wish you and your daughter well.

Did I say that all people who identify as trans have a personality disorder? No, I did not. I said that the move to affirmation only means that the gatekeeping mechanisms that used to weed out people whose distress is attributable to things other than gender dysphoria are now considered unacceptable. That's why there's a huge increase in trans identification. All one has to do now to be trans is to proclaim themselves as such.

I have extensive experience working with people who suffer from chronic mental illness and personality disorders. Have you ever interacted with people who have borderline personality disorder? Narcissistic personality disorder? They have an unstable sense of self and suffer from chronic feelings of emptiness. Clinging to new identities and demanding affirmation from others is common among such people. This is common knowledge among mental health professionals, not something I just made up.

PS: How do you explain the white women who pretended to be Black or Latina?

Wise Old Man wrote:

Yes, get over it.

Also, stop the nonsense that letting the occasional trans athlete compete is going to undermine and completely destroy the general construct of male/female categories in sports. That’s a silly straw man that is not based in reality.

That "strawman" is the same as saying, "so what if we allow a few cheats into sport - there aren't many of them so it doesn't matter". Well, to those who feel it is wrong for biological males to compete in women's sport it is the same as allowing an unfair advantage to anyone else - like a cheat would have. I'm not saying a trans competitor is a cheat but the principle is the same; they may be few in number but if they don't belong in women's sport the effect is the same of undermining that sport. Especially if they beat everyone else. If your winners are cheats or trans the outcome is the same for the sport. But then you might not be that bothered by cheats either.

This thread has become inundated with posts that say little more (but at great length) than trans people get a tough deal in life and so they are therefore entitled to compete in women's sport. It is a complete non sequitur. Since non sequiturs are at the core of that argument, why not give them all the prizes, too? After all, the aim is to make them feel better. Whether it has harmful consequences to others is irrelevant. They - women - should just suck it up.

The next argument after that is that if you identify as a woman that obviates any discussion of the biological differences that apply between men and women. Unlike any other category of sport that requires biological criteria for eligibility of entry, women's sport is now only and merely a social construct. Logically, that means that being a woman is also only a social construct - and one that is apparently being determined by those who many would see are not women because they are male.

Lastly, we are to be persuaded of the argument for "inclusivity" on the basis that someone's daughter or sister would be ok with it. The dangerous fallacy inherent in that position is that it could equally apply to denying access, on the basis that someone's daughter or sister (or anyone else) felt that way, when the criteria for participation should be objectively determined. It is the same kind of argument that long denied black people the vote in the US and stripped the rights of Jews in Nazi Germany because certain people were ok with that.

Actually no one is saying any of those things. You’re twisting words and making your own arguments up.

You transphobes still haven’t listed a single person who has transitioned for the purpose of winning female sports titles.

I’d like to see that before you argue any further. Seems to me like people are worried about some slippery slope of people saying “I’m a woman!” Just so they can win. It just doesn’t happen. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

not a duck wrote:

Actually no one is saying any of those things. You’re twisting words and making your own arguments up.

You transphobes still haven’t listed a single person who has transitioned for the purpose of winning female sports titles.

I’d like to see that before you argue any further. Seems to me like people are worried about some slippery slope of people saying “I’m a woman!” Just so they can win. It just doesn’t happen. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

Their intent as to why they are competing is irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether they are competing against women just so they can win or because they genuinely and misguidedly believe they are somehow the same as those who are born women. The criteria for participation in female sports are biological, not cultural or even psychological; if you aren't biologically female you fall outside those criteria. The criteria have a purpose; to ensure that women's sport is a protected category - like age or weight-based sport. The participation of biological males defeats the purpose of having women's sport as a protected category.

There would have to be a huge level of delusion and probably a significant personality disorder for a trans female to not realise that the success they're gaining while competing as a woman is completely unfair and unearned.

It's the equivalent of turning up at the local 2 mile fun run and celebrating as you beat a bunch of 10 year olds to the line. Only a narcissist could ever take pleasure from this.

Armstronglivs wrote:

The participation of biological males defeats the purpose of having women's sport as a protected category.

No, it doesn’t.

Also, stop bringing up age and weight.

Age - Every changes ages yearly. Unlike gender, which is socially and psychologically seen as being something that a person CAN change, you can’t change age. If you don’t think transgenderism is a reality, then you haven’t even gotten to the start line of the conversation.

Weight - I can change my weight month to month! This is actually an argument FOR trans inclusion. Just like trans athletes, one doesn’t wake up and say “today, I’ll run as a man” or “today, I will be 20 lbs. lighter.” They undergo a transformative process and that new gender/weight becomes a reality for them. Would you deny a boxer who was 160lbs. to compete in the 160 weight class if they were at one time 200 lbs.? No? Then you are okay with athletes switching between these sacred, holy classifications.

That's silly though.

A former 200lb guy competing as in a 160lb category after having gone through a transformative process (losing weight) is fine because they are actually under 160lbs and those are the rules.

A male high schooler competing as a girl (if we're talking young trans athletes who have gone through no hormonal/surgical treatments) can go through whatever 'transformative process' they want, but physically they're still the same as they were before this 'process' started.

Translanguage, the changing of the meaning of words to fit a narrative that you believe. Also known as Newspeak. Perhaps there should be a thread on the etymology of the word "gender" and how Simone Lucie Ernestine Marie Bertrand de Beauvoir influenced the new fond fluidness of gender.

Your arguments show an appalling inability to grasp the principles involved. Age categories are fixed in the same way as weight and gender categories are. You can only compete in the age or weight category that you conform to. It is utterly irrelevant to this discussion that your age changes, as your weight can. Once you are 20 you cannot compete as a 19 year-old. If you are 80kg, you cannot compete in the 75-79kg class. It is irrelevant that you could reduce your weight and thereby comply with the criteria of another lower class. You compete only within the criteria of that class of competition that you conform to. Women's sport is the same. You have to be female. The exception now argued, that males who think they are female should be allowed to compete against females, is an absurdity. That's like "thinking" you are 19 when you are 20, or that you are 75kg when you are 80kg.

I do not deny that transgenderism is a reality; the reality I deny is that transgender women are biologically female. Female sport is a biological category, in the same way as age and weight categories exist. As I said above, it is irrelevant that you can change some categories - like weight - and not others - like age. Change is not the issue; conformity is. Transgender women do not conform with the biological criteria of those who are female. "Choosing" to be female does not make them female, in the same way I cannot choose to be other than the age or weight that I am (when I am weighed). Males have been excluded from female competition because they have advantages denied females. The inclusion of transwomen - who are biologically male - in women's sport utterly contradicts that purpose.

The only basis that you have for arguing that the principles that apply everywhere else in sports competition should not apply to transwomen is a social argument; they should have the opportunity to compete. Yes, they should - but not against women. To allow them to compete against women goes against the very reason women's sport is a protected category; women cannot fairly compete against men in those sports. Transwomen are still men. Changing their self-description doesn't change their biology.

Amazing that an 18 year old points out that nearly 100 boys from her little state can beat her even though she is a national champ and many adults completely disregard that fact. Iowa and most states have no rules regarding transgender participation in sports. Athletes just show up and compete like the 2 CT Boys did. There are likely many boys beating girls across the country right now and nobody is the wiser. But these people will run into trouble when they receive their physical before their first college practice.