Jonathan Gault is (rightly) full of praise for Elijah Manangoi - a guy who just got banned for 2 years

I would be interested if AIU used a different set of DCO’s when they took over responsibilities.

It would be the first thing I would do.

rule readerr wrote:

What on earth does your question mean!

It's not that complicated.

If two countries have a similar number of positive tests, but one does a lot of tests in a vast number of sports and the other does a limited number of tests restricted to one small part of one sport, which would you say has the bigger doping problem?

trollism wrote:

The UK does a lot of testing in a lot of sports.

Kenya does a little bit of testing in one part of one sport.

If they're both as bad as each other, you wouldn't expect the number of positives to be close, would you?

In order to model correct expectations, we'd have to look at all the differences, and not just our own assumption of how much testing there is. Some factors:

- The general level of doping awareness of the athletes between countries like the UK versus Kenya

- The awareness and education and support supplied by their managers, coaches, federation

- The availability and use of doctors who are aware of athlete's special obligations

- The number of athletes that compete in each country

- The level of sophistication of the doping athlete that dopes - a more sophisticated doping athlete also knows when and how to hide it

- The number of tests an athlete undergoes

With an unsophisticated country like Kenya (this conclusion comes from the WADA report), we can expect a significant amount of accidental doping, and a higher number of busts from doping, and a lack of legal resources to get the doping bust overturned.

Comparing a country of Lance Armstrongs, versus a country of Kisorios, and we should expect a much higher number of busts from the Kisorios, even if doping the doping rate is comparable.

So we're back on the whole 'Kenyans are too stupid to know any better' defence of the rampant, unapologetic doping in that part of the world?

Bit disrespectful, don't you think? What would El K think about that?

trollism wrote:

So we're back on the whole 'Kenyans are too stupid to know any better' defence of the rampant, unapologetic doping in that part of the world?

Bit disrespectful, don't you think? What would El K think about that?

Once the WADA report came out that's where we were.

Here are the conclusions from the WADA report:

- The doping practices of Kenyan athletes are unsophisticated, opportunistic, and

uncoordinated.

- Doping in Kenya is drastically different from other doping structures discovered

elsewhere in the world.

- Based on the substances detected, Kenyan athletes most commonly use Nandrolone

and EPO.

- Athletes in Kenya are insufficiently educated on doping and/or willfully blind as to the

consequences of doping.

- The role of local medical practitioners and quasi-medical personnel (e.g. chemists) is

highly relevant to the accessibility of Prohibited Substances to athletes and their entourage.

- Some local medical practitioners and quasi-medical personnel are unaware and/or

willfully blind to their role in facilitating the access of athletes and their entourage to

Prohibited Substances.

- The benefits of the Substantial Assistance provisions of the Code are vastly

underutilized by doping Kenyan athletes.

trollism wrote:

So we're back on the whole 'Kenyans are too stupid to know any better' defence of the rampant, unapologetic doping in that part of the world?

Bit disrespectful, don't you think? What would El K think about that?

At the same time though, we need to build a better model than yours to arrive at correct expectations.

I believe that in this the holiday season, most everyone here is thankful for the protocol put in place to keep bony substance abusers like this guy out of the sport.

trollism wrote:

rule readerr wrote:

What on earth does your question mean!

It's not that complicated.

If two countries have a similar number of positive tests, but one does a lot of tests in a vast number of sports and the other does a limited number of tests restricted to one small part of one sport, which would you say has the bigger doping problem?

The latter.

So it sounds as if Rekrunner believes that Kenyan runners should be excused due to their ignorance. I will excuse Rekrunner due to his ignorance. Plus Rekrunner does not believe that PEDs help anyway. So we are dealing with someone who believes that athletes should not be penalized for ingesting PEDs as they are like sugar pill placebos. You are excused for your ignorance Rekrunner.

........ wrote:

So it sounds as if Rekrunner believes that Kenyan runners should be excused due to their ignorance. I will excuse Rekrunner due to his ignorance. Plus Rekrunner does not believe that PEDs help anyway. So we are dealing with someone who believes that athletes should not be penalized for ingesting PEDs as they are like sugar pill placebos. You are excused for your ignorance Rekrunner.

If that's what it sounds like to you, you should get your hearing checked. These are not my beliefs.

I'm not asking anyone to excuse Kenyan runners.

I believe PEDs can only be PE, by definition.

I believe athletes subject to the WADA code should be penalized according to the WADA code, if they violate any rules in the WADA code.

OK so what is the point of you trying to reinforce the point about Kenyan runners being naive? What is the point?

The point was to build a better model of expectations of the number of positives.

See "trollism's" post above for context, and his model.