For me it is essential to have short rests otherwise it is missing the point of the training system imho.
Personnally, I have 2 min for 10 min repetitions, 90 sec for 6 min and 1 min for 3 min and I think it is the maximum I should have and my rest is done jogging. Short rest also makes you not to go too fast during the repetition.
I have noticed sirpoc doing 2 mins rest now on the 3*3200 now, but still only 1 min especially on the 10*1km. If anyone knows why he switched to the longer rest on the longer reps. That might be useful to know? All his rest is between 1-2 mins absolute max still though. I've been following his monotonous routine on Strava.
The Norwegian zone system puts sub threshold as 82-87% of max hr.
My LTHR is closer to 92% of max hr.
i don’t have a lactate device. Would keeping things in the 82-87% of max hr work?
If you look at what has been said in the thread, you are not really looking at what the pro Norwegian's are doing. Everyone is mistaking that. Doubles or what people run in doubles is irrelevant. If you look at what KI and sirpoc84 are doing they are flying a lot closer to the sun, on singles. Which makes sense. You are just pushing as close to the lt2 limit as you can + making sure you can recover for 48 hours later. That's why I have found this thread very interesting and different. If you are sure your lthr is 92% of max, this system at its most efficient will get you close to finishing around that on your last rep. I am not trying to troll just to make it clear this is absolutely different from it you were running doubles. It's really not the same at all.
Not everyone recovers at the same rate, for various reasons. I'm finding the 60 secs not enough. Not just for recovery, but change music, take a drink etc and 60 secs is gone in a flash.
Lol are you training or having a picnic? Maybe take a shower between reps while you're at it?
This thread is really, really stupid. If anyone thinks this is optimal on time crunched then they need their heads testing. There is a reasons there are multiple editions of Daniel's books and they are best selling. The reason being it's almost certainly the best way to train on time crunched. Spoiler people, this is why he has different levels of training plans as well.
I doubt you even feel like you have done a workout at some of these paces mentioned here. The easy pace, you probably don't even need a shower afterwards. You guys are nuts. You are putting Daniels in the bin to follow Jakob's slow older brother and some random British dude who used to ride a bike. Seriously, everyone just breathe and think about that for a minute. You guys are nuts.
You are putting Daniels in the bin to follow Jakob's slow older brother and some random British dude who used to ride a bike. Seriously, everyone just breathe and think about that for a minute. You guys are nuts.
I'll follow Joe Biden's running routine if it gets me a PB. This stuff is working, I couldn't care less who came up with it.
Since I started training like the “slow” Norwegian and random bicycling Brit, I’ve been able to run more total mileage, more quality mileage, and faster time trials with fewer injuries than at any other point in my decade+ since high school. If it looks stupid but it works, it’s not stupid
This thread is really, really stupid. If anyone thinks this is optimal on time crunched then they need their heads testing. There is a reasons there are multiple editions of Daniel's books and they are best selling. The reason being it's almost certainly the best way to train on time crunched. Spoiler people, this is why he has different levels of training plans as well.
I doubt you even feel like you have done a workout at some of these paces mentioned here. The easy pace, you probably don't even need a shower afterwards. You guys are nuts. You are putting Daniels in the bin to follow Jakob's slow older brother and some random British dude who used to ride a bike. Seriously, everyone just breathe and think about that for a minute. You guys are nuts.
What you write is full of prejudice.
It would be like saying: "Daniels is a modern penthatlon athlete, why should we follow his advice on running" :)
KI and sirpoc are people much closer to the majority of people than pro athletes are. So, if they achieve results it is very interesting.
Note that KI gets his training advice from the same person as Jakob do, so it is maybe not so bad...
I can only speak for myself, but in 2020 right before the Pandemic I did more of the conventional stuff ~ VO2 to the well workouts, easier runs "harder" etc. I was training as hard as I had since college/right after it. I was dealing with sicknesses, fatigue etc decently often as a result. My BK Half race got cancelled (due to COVID), and I did some Time Trials instead. I managed an OK mile time trial (course was short ~ probably a 4:50). I tanked a 3K time trial, and I was feeling pretty done with post-collegiate training. Meanwhile since then, I adopted a lot of the principles in this thread and despite being older, I feel fresher in training than ever before. I've run faster in the mile on abbreviated buildups (two years in a row), and I've found the principles work well for the marathon/half as well (with the adjustment of long runs). Yes running long reps with short rest can be a bit "boring," but staying healthy and improving is the right type of boring as opposed to crashing and burning.
Updating this, but can only say the training is feeling great. Have put together about 12 solid weeks. I am training for a marathon and there arent fast 5ks around (maybe I should hit the track, though I don’t have spikes). I am starting to get in the routine of a short threshold (400-1000) and long threshold (1600-2400) with 1’ rests in each week and a long run typically with some tempo/threshold. I have a hilly 4-mile soon and hope to drop a big PB.
Has anyone adapted this training regime to marathon training? Right now I am trying to mesh the 3 sub T workouts with marathon training by moving one of the workouts into the long run. For example, yesterday I did 18 miles with 6x6’ @ 10 Mile pace in the back half of the run.
This subject comes up a lot in the group. Consensus seems to be that moving a set of intervals into the long run is a valid option but you will eventually need to replace this with some actual MP/LT1 work to bring your LT1/LT2 closer together for optimal marathon performance.
The Norwegian zone system puts sub threshold as 82-87% of max hr.
My LTHR is closer to 92% of max hr.
i don’t have a lactate device. Would keeping things in the 82-87% of max hr work?
If you look at what has been said in the thread, you are not really looking at what the pro Norwegian's are doing. Everyone is mistaking that. Doubles or what people run in doubles is irrelevant. If you look at what KI and sirpoc84 are doing they are flying a lot closer to the sun, on singles. Which makes sense. You are just pushing as close to the lt2 limit as you can + making sure you can recover for 48 hours later. That's why I have found this thread very interesting and different. If you are sure your lthr is 92% of max, this system at its most efficient will get you close to finishing around that on your last rep. I am not trying to troll just to make it clear this is absolutely different from it you were running doubles. It's really not the same at all.
They are only coming close to LT2 at the end of the final rep.
Impressed with your story of doing 17/18 hrs per week on the bike when you were off work.
Did you run after this period? Just wondering if this affected your run performance?
If you were not working and had all the time in the world, how would you train? Would you continue with what you are doing , but add in tons of cross training/cycling etc?
Anyone have any thoughts on replacing the third quality day with a hill session similar to Jakob’s Saturday hill session? I feel as though the aerobic/threshold benefits of a third Sub T session would outweigh the benefits of the hill session for someone who is generally limited by their lactate threshold. If you have a highly developed LT that has plateaued for a while, perhaps adding the hills to replace the 3rd Q day would be useful. Clearly, sirpoc hasn’t needed to run any hill sessions or speedwork really of any kind to make massive improvements at all distances.
Impressed with your story of doing 17/18 hrs per week on the bike when you were off work.
Did you run after this period? Just wondering if this affected your run performance?
If you were not working and had all the time in the world, how would you train? Would you continue with what you are doing , but add in tons of cross training/cycling etc?
I wasn't running during this period at all. This was purely during my cycling life. (Albeit I did run two high 19s in the middle of a duathlon I did for fun).
But the interesting thing was my CTL was at its highest after all this 2.5+ hour riding on the turbo, every single day and then I hit a power pb. IMO as long as data collection is good, I see a clear relationship in cycling power and overall load. Now, in running, I see some (but not all) of the same relationship. That, in general, for someone time crunched, CTL is a reasonably good indicator of that more is going to equal a faster time. There's more factors that go into running, including not having a yardstick to measure against like we do with power in cycling and also the data collection is probably less accurate.
As I have said before, the way I'm training I don't actually think is the best way. But, I do believe it's the best way on the limited hours and time I have? Could I reach X training load on the hours I have got any other way? Probably not. Would I train this way if I had 12+ hours a week? Probably not, also. Definitely would incorporate doubles, more % of easy running and potentially an x factor session. I'm close to the limit now, FWIW I believe on that my CTL is flattening out and I will find it hard to get much faster, without doing something different ( by which I mean more hours). I hope that sort of answers what you are looking for.
Anyone have any thoughts on replacing the third quality day with a hill session similar to Jakob’s Saturday hill session? I feel as though the aerobic/threshold benefits of a third Sub T session would outweigh the benefits of the hill session for someone who is generally limited by their lactate threshold. If you have a highly developed LT that has plateaued for a while, perhaps adding the hills to replace the 3rd Q day would be useful. Clearly, sirpoc hasn’t needed to run any hill sessions or speedwork really of any kind to make massive improvements at all distances.
As I sort of mentioned above, an x factor session with some easy running that day might be the best way to generate some extra training load once you hit a brick wall. Which, you will, like training any method, at some point. The plateau though I believe takes longer to reach , training this way.
Anyone have any thoughts on replacing the third quality day with a hill session similar to Jakob’s Saturday hill session? I feel as though the aerobic/threshold benefits of a third Sub T session would outweigh the benefits of the hill session for someone who is generally limited by their lactate threshold. If you have a highly developed LT that has plateaued for a while, perhaps adding the hills to replace the 3rd Q day would be useful. Clearly, sirpoc hasn’t needed to run any hill sessions or speedwork really of any kind to make massive improvements at all distances.
Ease into the hill sessions. I wouldn’t start with 2 x 10 x 200m hills. That’s a pretty solid session. Jakob can handle it and come back the next day with a long run and two days later with a double threshold because of his high level of fitness. He’s also injured at the moment (I think he mentioned in the recent article having little injuries since 2019?) You really don’t need a high dose of speed to get the benefits. Even something like 10 x 30s hills would be a good starting point when it is a new stimulus, especially if you really push the hills hard. You could also do a long warm-up/cool-down to get more from the day.