Ah, the letsrun checker no. 1 slides in, as usual he don't even get what it's about.
We can wait for more top contribution to the forum/thread like completely wrong statistics (knowingly or just too stupid?), denying of facts to an enormous extend, unlogical "reasoning" ("13.16" > "13.24" - almost anybody is doping, non Kenyans mostly try to be at the top legitimately) that it's almost hurting for fact and logic based posters.
Your insistence that a 13.24 is faster than 13.16 - because it was run by a Kenyan - has always confirmed that you are up there amongst the most stupid ph*qs who have ever posted here.
I've never said or "insisted" in any way that "13.24" is faster than "13.16" (still struggling with the format of times?). I'm also not saying or "insisting" that Keino is "faster" than Clarke. For a simple reason: it's complete nonsense.
It could be explained 100 times to you and you would not get the point, so my maybe 15th attempt will surely fail, but...
What I've said: from the premise that Clarke is faster than Keino it's a definitive conclusion that Keino is faster than Clarke. OK? So far you havn't said something to all the arguments why "Clarke is faster than Keino" is complete nonsense (Keino has beaten Clarke over 5000m at the 64 OG, 66 CG, 68 OG, 70 CG, Keino's total time for 1500m and 5000m (just added !!) is faster than Clarke's (Clarke has run the 1500m often, also while in top shape) and so on. 13.16 > 13.24 - there will not come more from you to the subject.
Despite Armstrongliv straying off-topic, again, just to embellish the known facts in order to redeclare his faith in EPO (you were talking about altitude: "people who run every day at altitude have an advantage running at altitude"); he also fails basic fact checking:
- 5 weeks ago, the papers announced two women were sanctioned for steroids (AAS) and trimetazidine, for AAFs found in 2022. In both cases, the tribunal accepted it was unintentional in the scope of medical treatment, so they received a 2-year ban for their unintentional use.
- 3 weeks prior, the AIU sanction another woman for Triamcinolone acetonide.
So 3 sanctions in the last 8 weeks (or can we say 15 weeks dating back to mid-December 2022?), and none of them were for EPO.
Whew. What a relief it wasn't EPO but was another drug instead. But wait - doesn't that mean they were still doping...?
Whew. What a relief it wasn't EPO but was another drug instead. But wait - doesn't that mean they were still doping...?
Whether seeking routine medical help in a hospital for ailments constitutes doping depends on who is defining the term.
But the question you responded to was "What kind of advantage do Kenyans have for running at altitude?" as Coevett said "people who run every day at altitude have an advantage running at altitude". Coevett's statement has nothing to do with doping.
Your response was both non-responsive, as well as non-factual.
Whew. What a relief it wasn't EPO but was another drug instead. But wait - doesn't that mean they were still doping...?
Whether seeking routine medical help in a hospital for ailments constitutes doping depends on who is defining the term.
But the question you responded to was "What kind of advantage do Kenyans have for running at altitude?" as Coevett said "people who run every day at altitude have an advantage running at altitude". Coevett's statement has nothing to do with doping.
Your response was both non-responsive, as well as non-factual.
"Routine medical help" isn't doping. But I guess in your books all those Kenyan athletes testing positive were just seeking "routine medical help".
"Routine medical help" isn't doping. But I guess in your books all those Kenyan athletes testing positive were just seeking "routine medical help".
I'm glad we agree that "routine medical help" isn't doping, and that there are exceptions to positive tests. That was the official finding though with the latest two Kenyans to make the headlines, Stellah Barsosio and Gloria Kite Chebiwott.
Of course I didn't say "all" the positive tests -- this is just your shallow "all or nothing" dichotomous thinking. The positive tests are a certainly a combination of intentional doping, and accidental or unknowing ingestion or treatment.
And it is not "my book" -- I am reading WADA reports, and WADA funded studies, and anti-doping tribunal decisions and forming my opinions based on the facts and findings found in "WADA's books".
For example, in 2017, WADA joined investigative forces with the AIU and ADAK to characterize Kenyan doping. They interviewed several athletes who had gone to the hospital, like any normal person with illness or injury, to treat anemia, malaria, and running injuries. They identified a clear need in Kenya for educating the athletes, the pharmacists, and the doctors, of the obligations of athletes subject to WADA in order to reduce or eliminate these unintentional doping cases.
In addition, WADA publishes reports annually that show only a fraction of "positive tests" end up being sanctioned as ADRVs, as some ~30% of the positive tests are dismissed for medical reasons, other non-doping reasons, or exonerated. Of the remaining sanctioned ADRVs, surely some of them include athletes who couldn't provide medical records (like those interviewed in the 2017 study) and/or failed to declare it on the DCF, as well as those who accidentally ingested banned substances from their meals or contaminated medication (like 27 USADA athletes, Jarrion Lawson, Simon Getzmann, etc.) or from supplements (always a risk), but were unable to prove it weeks or months after the event, when they were first put on notice.
Part of the failure to prove it is to have your case adjudicated in the first place. For Simon Getzmann, it cost his father 10,000 Euros for testing and representation to clear his name. Most athletes are struggling below poverty level. How many Kenyans can afford to lititgate against an aggressive IAAF/WA/AIU? Recall for example that Kenyan farmers do not routinely castrate their pigs, one "endogenous" source of nandrolone, and that the 2017 study found nandrolone was the most common substance among Kenyan ADRVs. Furthermore, such cases prosecuted by the AIU are likely conducted in English and French, putting rural Kenyans at a further disadvantage.
This is all publicly available information -- I don't know why you chose to keep yourself uninformed, and have done so apparently for five decades.
You definitely havn't got the absurdity in your reasoning regarding Clarke/Keino.
As you havn't got why people point on your "hurdles times".
You call the nation with the fastest times and the most medals and records slow and to be losers.
You jump here in with absolutely no connection to the subject in discussion. You disgrace of a poster.
Early in the thread you said "no one was faster than Keino in his era". A simple question: was Clarke's 13.16 world record for the 5k faster than Keino's best of 13.24? Yes or no.
You definitely havn't got the absurdity in your reasoning regarding Clarke/Keino.
As you havn't got why people point on your "hurdles times".
You call the nation with the fastest times and the most medals and records slow and to be losers.
You jump here in with absolutely no connection to the subject in discussion. You disgrace of a poster.
Early in the thread you said "no one was faster than Keino in his era". A simple question: was Clarke's 13.16 world record for the 5k faster than Keino's best of 13.24? Yes or no.
"Routine medical help" isn't doping. But I guess in your books all those Kenyan athletes testing positive were just seeking "routine medical help".
I'm glad we agree that "routine medical help" isn't doping, and that there are exceptions to positive tests. That was the official finding though with the latest two Kenyans to make the headlines, Stellah Barsosio and Gloria Kite Chebiwott.
Of course I didn't say "all" the positive tests -- this is just your shallow "all or nothing" dichotomous thinking. The positive tests are a certainly a combination of intentional doping, and accidental or unknowing ingestion or treatment.
And it is not "my book" -- I am reading WADA reports, and WADA funded studies, and anti-doping tribunal decisions and forming my opinions based on the facts and findings found in "WADA's books".
For example, in 2017, WADA joined investigative forces with the AIU and ADAK to characterize Kenyan doping. They interviewed several athletes who had gone to the hospital, like any normal person with illness or injury, to treat anemia, malaria, and running injuries. They identified a clear need in Kenya for educating the athletes, the pharmacists, and the doctors, of the obligations of athletes subject to WADA in order to reduce or eliminate these unintentional doping cases.
In addition, WADA publishes reports annually that show only a fraction of "positive tests" end up being sanctioned as ADRVs, as some ~30% of the positive tests are dismissed for medical reasons, other non-doping reasons, or exonerated. Of the remaining sanctioned ADRVs, surely some of them include athletes who couldn't provide medical records (like those interviewed in the 2017 study) and/or failed to declare it on the DCF, as well as those who accidentally ingested banned substances from their meals or contaminated medication (like 27 USADA athletes, Jarrion Lawson, Simon Getzmann, etc.) or from supplements (always a risk), but were unable to prove it weeks or months after the event, when they were first put on notice.
Part of the failure to prove it is to have your case adjudicated in the first place. For Simon Getzmann, it cost his father 10,000 Euros for testing and representation to clear his name. Most athletes are struggling below poverty level. How many Kenyans can afford to lititgate against an aggressive IAAF/WA/AIU? Recall for example that Kenyan farmers do not routinely castrate their pigs, one "endogenous" source of nandrolone, and that the 2017 study found nandrolone was the most common substance among Kenyan ADRVs. Furthermore, such cases prosecuted by the AIU are likely conducted in English and French, putting rural Kenyans at a further disadvantage.
This is all publicly available information -- I don't know why you chose to keep yourself uninformed, and have done so apparently for five decades.
A "fraction" of positive tests end up being doping violations? You have it round the wrong way. Very few positive tests result in subsequent exoneration. Show where WADA says "30% of positive tests" do not result in a violation.
Early in the thread you said "no one was faster than Keino in his era". A simple question: was Clarke's 13.16 world record for the 5k faster than Keino's best of 13.24? Yes or no.
No one has ever run 13.16 or 13.24 for 5k.
13 minutes and 16 secs, and 13 minutes and 24 secs for the dunce in the corner.
You definitely havn't got the absurdity in your reasoning regarding Clarke/Keino.
As you havn't got why people point on your "hurdles times".
You call the nation with the fastest times and the most medals and records slow and to be losers.
You jump here in with absolutely no connection to the subject in discussion. You disgrace of a poster.
Early in the thread you said "no one was faster than Keino in his era". A simple question: was Clarke's 13mins16secs world record for the 5k faster than Keino's best of 13mins24secs? Yes or no.
This post was edited 31 seconds after it was posted.
"Routine medical help" isn't doping. But I guess in your books all those Kenyan athletes testing positive were just seeking "routine medical help".
I'm glad we agree that "routine medical help" isn't doping, and that there are exceptions to positive tests. That was the official finding though with the latest two Kenyans to make the headlines, Stellah Barsosio and Gloria Kite Chebiwott.
Of course I didn't say "all" the positive tests -- this is just your shallow "all or nothing" dichotomous thinking. The positive tests are a certainly a combination of intentional doping, and accidental or unknowing ingestion or treatment.
And it is not "my book" -- I am reading WADA reports, and WADA funded studies, and anti-doping tribunal decisions and forming my opinions based on the facts and findings found in "WADA's books".
For example, in 2017, WADA joined investigative forces with the AIU and ADAK to characterize Kenyan doping. They interviewed several athletes who had gone to the hospital, like any normal person with illness or injury, to treat anemia, malaria, and running injuries. They identified a clear need in Kenya for educating the athletes, the pharmacists, and the doctors, of the obligations of athletes subject to WADA in order to reduce or eliminate these unintentional doping cases.
In addition, WADA publishes reports annually that show only a fraction of "positive tests" end up being sanctioned as ADRVs, as some ~30% of the positive tests are dismissed for medical reasons, other non-doping reasons, or exonerated. Of the remaining sanctioned ADRVs, surely some of them include athletes who couldn't provide medical records (like those interviewed in the 2017 study) and/or failed to declare it on the DCF, as well as those who accidentally ingested banned substances from their meals or contaminated medication (like 27 USADA athletes, Jarrion Lawson, Simon Getzmann, etc.) or from supplements (always a risk), but were unable to prove it weeks or months after the event, when they were first put on notice.
Part of the failure to prove it is to have your case adjudicated in the first place. For Simon Getzmann, it cost his father 10,000 Euros for testing and representation to clear his name. Most athletes are struggling below poverty level. How many Kenyans can afford to lititgate against an aggressive IAAF/WA/AIU? Recall for example that Kenyan farmers do not routinely castrate their pigs, one "endogenous" source of nandrolone, and that the 2017 study found nandrolone was the most common substance among Kenyan ADRVs. Furthermore, such cases prosecuted by the AIU are likely conducted in English and French, putting rural Kenyans at a further disadvantage.
This is all publicly available information -- I don't know why you chose to keep yourself uninformed, and have done so apparently for five decades.
So now we know that most Kenyan doping positives and also most of their violations are innocent in your view. It isn't however the approach taken by Kenyan Athletics, that feared a ban at the end of last year, and World Athletics when Lord Coe said Kenya needs to clean itself up.
A "fraction" of positive tests end up being doping violations? You have it round the wrong way. Very few positive tests result in subsequent exoneration. Show where WADA says "30% of positive tests" do not result in a violation.
No matter which way round you look at it, we are talking about fractions. You are partly right -- few result in "exoneration". But I said "medical reasons, other non-doping reasons, or exonerated". You missed the top two reasons. You can see the numbers for yourself in WADA ADRV reports published each year at their website. I excluded pending cases from the calculation.
So now we know that most Kenyan doping positives and also most of their violations are innocent in your view. It isn't however the approach taken by Kenyan Athletics, that feared a ban at the end of last year, and World Athletics when Lord Coe said Kenya needs to clean itself up.
I didn't say "most" -- that is your word. But I have no doubt that innocent athletes worldwide are convicted by ADAs and ADOs for a number of reasons, because proving your innocence under the WADA rules is not always easy, feasible, or possible.
I can see why AK feared the ban, as many reporters, pundits, and fans have been calling for it. Maybe I missed it, but I have yet to see any indication coming from World Athletics, that they were ever considering banning Kenya, or that they had grounds to -- only that AK feared it, and the mob called for it.