how mentally ill do you have to be to dox someone over a training thread?
This is why LRC can't have nice things. I hope this doesn't spoil what is probably the best LRC chat thread ever for hobby joggers, which lets be honest, is most of us.
Thank you, no offense taken. I actually would say I have little talent so was not offended, and appreciate your post. I am going to see it, using honest #s where I'm at (21-22-ish 5k, but using that data from a solo TT on a track).
Also no offense, but while “this training method” might be great for you and for many other runners, I think you’ll do well with a few changes in perspective/attitude and by being able to maintain the right kind of solid, consistent training week after week, year after year.
That consistent, well-managed alone can make a runner considerably faster while going through different training styles/plans to see what works for them. And then finding the “right” way for them is the next step in elevating their performance. But I believe you’ve merely scratched the surface on step 1.
And say that as someone who appreciates any number of good aspects of your attitude and as one who has respected your improvement across one year of training and your comeback from a tough break in another. Kudos to you for getting lots of good running in and managing some respectable times while falling prey to common training and racing problems, though.
Thanks for the kindness, seriously. I know I don't know much about running tbh...this place is awesome (also, no sarcasm).
What changes should I make to my perspective? I can see where I need to improve in terms of building training blocks.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
Dude, that's crazy. If you are in 22 shape right now those reps are way too slow. 8:00 isn't much slower than your easy days probably should be You are going to need some 5k pace efforts in there, it's really the only way to get faster at the distance. Some 10k reps there's some evidence that will help. But if your goal is 5k. Literally any sensible training plan is going to have some 5k pace workout, probably the backend of the week along with a straight tempo somewhere in there. That is bread and butter. Even at your current 5k pace, if not goal pace. Thank me later 😎
I think this whole thread has gone way over your head. I follow both sirpoc84 and Kristoffer on Strava as well, I've NEVER seen sirpoc84 post a workout faster than 12k pace and I've seen him break his 5k PB numerous times, very close to breaking 16. Same for KI, admittedly until recently he hasn't done anything faster than around 10-12k pace. sirpoc has mentioned I believe in this very thread, there is a point even with this that you cannot and won't improve anymore without changing something up. Considering Kristoffer has been going a bit longer than sirpoc, he probably hit that point first. I did, notice, Kristoffer has been doing reps, paces, sessions that sirpoc has was doing first, so maybe they are communicating and learning from each other, which I would find pretty cool.
I think this is simple in many ways that it also comes round to be complicated. People just are not getting I don't think that you really don't have to run 5k pace in practice, to race 5k pace.
Jecht, keep doing what you are doing. This system from the months of feedback we now have on the thread is clearly working for more, than not. That isn't to say this is magic system like the Swedish troll might tell you, but it's likely most will see good gains this way, just not guaranteed.
I mean when I first read the first 10 pages it seemed counterintuitive at first (I had never heard of the training until I saw the LRC thread) but after reading all 60+ pages at the time, then joining the Strava group a month ago, it really helps to go at that sub-threshold level and not fry yourself over and over. Being able to run 7:40-8:00 and get that volume of sub-threshold on 3 singles per week and see improvements would be interesting. Even if it is a slow jump from 22:20->21:30->20:50->20:20, etc. etc.
Saw this thread awhile back and wanted to comment...so if I'm a 17-minute 5k runner, I gather the equivalent paces, and then do the workouts at 1k-3k intervals as noted (later on in the thread, I read the entire thing).
How long do I actually do these for (3 EZ +3 T + 1 LR) even if I just run the paces over and over again correctly? Will the HR drop?
It sounds somewhat like Maffetone-adapted threshold training--not with Phil's junk science per se, and I'm NOT insulting it at all--but dependent on the paces just getting easier over time and HR dropping--i.e. running a 3k rep at 25k-30k pace (6:03-6:07 for 17m 5k equiv)--but the HR going from 160 to 140? And then conversely being able to run all out much faster for 5k at say, 180-190?
I genuinely don't get what you mean. You keep doing them. Then you improve, change your paces to faster ones, then run the same reps. Then repeat. It's nothing really to do with maffetone, or HR coming down. If you are running these are sub threshold, say 165-170 when your LTHR is 175, then in a month you are suddenly doing the same pace range, at 140-145, you've obviously got fitter. Ideally race, or at worst time trial, plug new paces back in and go again. I suggest you join the Strava group or follow Jakobs brother or sirpoc on Strava and it will probably make more sense.
thanks, I cant write well sometimes. Just wanted to knwo the seqence, thank you!
how mentally ill do you have to be to dox someone over a training thread?
someone went to the trouble to dox someone? I didn't see any doxxing in this thread. Most of the time it's lexel arguing with sirpoc and shirtboy. Unless they doxxed from the strava group but that's public (based on the posts here and that it was invited).
Dude, that's crazy. If you are in 22 shape right now those reps are way too slow. 8:00 isn't much slower than your easy days probably should be You are going to need some 5k pace efforts in there, it's really the only way to get faster at the distance. Some 10k reps there's some evidence that will help. But if your goal is 5k. Literally any sensible training plan is going to have some 5k pace workout, probably the backend of the week along with a straight tempo somewhere in there. That is bread and butter. Even at your current 5k pace, if not goal pace. Thank me later 😎
I think this whole thread has gone way over your head. I follow both sirpoc84 and Kristoffer on Strava as well, I've NEVER seen sirpoc84 post a workout faster than 12k pace and I've seen him break his 5k PB numerous times, very close to breaking 16. Same for KI, admittedly until recently he hasn't done anything faster than around 10-12k pace. sirpoc has mentioned I believe in this very thread, there is a point even with this that you cannot and won't improve anymore without changing something up. Considering Kristoffer has been going a bit longer than sirpoc, he probably hit that point first. I did, notice, Kristoffer has been doing reps, paces, sessions that sirpoc has was doing first, so maybe they are communicating and learning from each other, which I would find pretty cool.
I think this is simple in many ways that it also comes round to be complicated. People just are not getting I don't think that you really don't have to run 5k pace in practice, to race 5k pace.
Jecht, keep doing what you are doing. This system from the months of feedback we now have on the thread is clearly working for more, than not. That isn't to say this is magic system like the Swedish troll might tell you, but it's likely most will see good gains this way, just not guaranteed.
I have noticed on Strava that KI has started implementing hill sprints fairly regularly now
I'm pretty sure I am on on a lite version Jakob training to some degree now. No doubles but back to training vs jogging. All my runs are now at running pace and not jogging pace. Rarely feel busted but each run feels like I actually ran. I feel hunger after the run. Already lost 2 to 3 lbs. Running faster in less than a month already. I have a ton of easy miles built in starting with Covid layover. No super hard intervals nor jogging. I do jog really slow for warming up and cooling down.
how mentally ill do you have to be to dox someone over a training thread?
someone went to the trouble to dox someone? I didn't see any doxxing in this thread. Most of the time it's lexel arguing with sirpoc and shirtboy. Unless they doxxed from the strava group but that's public (based on the posts here and that it was invited).
It was post 1500 revealing the name of sirpoc. A link to a race he won as a cyclist.
Dude, that's crazy. If you are in 22 shape right now those reps are way too slow. 8:00 isn't much slower than your easy days probably should be You are going to need some 5k pace efforts in there, it's really the only way to get faster at the distance. Some 10k reps there's some evidence that will help. But if your goal is 5k. Literally any sensible training plan is going to have some 5k pace workout, probably the backend of the week along with a straight tempo somewhere in there. That is bread and butter. Even at your current 5k pace, if not goal pace. Thank me later 😎
I think this whole thread has gone way over your head. I follow both sirpoc84 and Kristoffer on Strava as well, I've NEVER seen sirpoc84 post a workout faster than 12k pace and I've seen him break his 5k PB numerous times, very close to breaking 16. Same for KI, admittedly until recently he hasn't done anything faster than around 10-12k pace. sirpoc has mentioned I believe in this very thread, there is a point even with this that you cannot and won't improve anymore without changing something up. Considering Kristoffer has been going a bit longer than sirpoc, he probably hit that point first. I did, notice, Kristoffer has been doing reps, paces, sessions that sirpoc has was doing first, so maybe they are communicating and learning from each other, which I would find pretty cool.
I think this is simple in many ways that it also comes round to be complicated. People just are not getting I don't think that you really don't have to run 5k pace in practice, to race 5k pace.
Jecht, keep doing what you are doing. This system from the months of feedback we now have on the thread is clearly working for more, than not. That isn't to say this is magic system like the Swedish troll might tell you, but it's likely most will see good gains this way, just not guaranteed.
What you try to say has already been done in running history by many runners, the most famous Ron Clarke who instead of doing 5 k pace in training did it in frequent racing.In training he did fast tempo running improving his lactate threshold.The Swedish magic coach you mention has another way of improving the 5 k pace by frequently use it in training but with short reps to not overdo the system.Then there is at least a third way to handle the need of 5 k pace and then you have the Lydiard style where the runner use the 5 k pace in the last phase to reach top performance.What you start to believe there wouldn't be a need of 5 k pace to reach max possible individual performance is just wrong.
I think this whole thread has gone way over your head. I follow both sirpoc84 and Kristoffer on Strava as well, I've NEVER seen sirpoc84 post a workout faster than 12k pace and I've seen him break his 5k PB numerous times, very close to breaking 16. Same for KI, admittedly until recently he hasn't done anything faster than around 10-12k pace. sirpoc has mentioned I believe in this very thread, there is a point even with this that you cannot and won't improve anymore without changing something up. Considering Kristoffer has been going a bit longer than sirpoc, he probably hit that point first. I did, notice, Kristoffer has been doing reps, paces, sessions that sirpoc has was doing first, so maybe they are communicating and learning from each other, which I would find pretty cool.
I think this is simple in many ways that it also comes round to be complicated. People just are not getting I don't think that you really don't have to run 5k pace in practice, to race 5k pace.
Jecht, keep doing what you are doing. This system from the months of feedback we now have on the thread is clearly working for more, than not. That isn't to say this is magic system like the Swedish troll might tell you, but it's likely most will see good gains this way, just not guaranteed.
What you try to say has already been done in running history by many runners, the most famous Ron Clarke who instead of doing 5 k pace in training did it in frequent racing.In training he did fast tempo running improving his lactate threshold.The Swedish magic coach you mention has another way of improving the 5 k pace by frequently use it in training but with short reps to not overdo the system.Then there is at least a third way to handle the need of 5 k pace and then you have the Lydiard style where the runner use the 5 k pace in the last phase to reach top performance.What you start to believe there wouldn't be a need of 5 k pace to reach max possible individual performance is just wrong.
Leave this thread, Jan. You bring nothing to the discussion.
I fear I may have discovered this thread too late! I too have been training with a modified version of Norwegian training. Not quite the same as Sirpoc’s, but similar enough. I too have been running PRs at an age where I would not have expected that such things would be possible (age 46). I’m not as fast in the 5k as I was many moons ago as a DIII college runner, but I’m close. And for distances over 8k, I’m better than I ever was.
Some comments and thoughts that perhaps add something to this very long thread. -As background, I live at nearly 8000 ft. of elevation. I was more of a speed guy back in the day (4:07-1500) who was relatively weak in longer distances (16:07 5k, 27:28 8k) (dare I say, "fast twitch"). I can still run a 27-second 200 at 46. I used to be able to run a 52-second split on a 4x4.
-My marathon PR is 2:59, which I ran while training for the Leadville 100 (which I finished in 23 hours) with just jogging the mountains as training. I suspect I can knock 10 minutes off that if I dedicate myself to it, but just haven’t had time or motivation to do so. I just ran my first sub hour 10 mile three days ago. I ran my first sub 36 10k four days before that. I’m at low elevations while visiting the inlaws, so clustering in some time trials. Never did an interval longer than 6:15 in training. My quads are thrashed from back-to-back long time trials, so not sure I’d recommend that! -I train with a HRM and test lactate after most of my workouts. -I typically do 2-3 threshold sessions a week. I sometimes do a Bakken-style “x” element workout when I’m training for something shorter than 5k. I aim for 20-25% of my volume in thresholds. I do my easy days sub 70% of max HR, which ain’t easy at 8000 feet when nothing is flat. Plenty of hills in my neighborhood force my pace to slower than 10’ a mile. Sometimes I’m sub-7 sub 120 HR on the downs. -I occasionally do a 20 x 300 off 1’ (jogging the remaining 100 of the 400) at 5k pace. As long as I stick to current (not goal) 5k pace, I find that my lactate stays below 3.5 mmol/l on those sessions. If I do these in 62.x, I’ll be around 3 mmol/l. That’s low 17s for 5k at 7000’. For folks that want to pursue this training, this is similar to the 20 x 400 session that the Ingebrigtens (occasionally) do (Bakken wrote about it in the article published previously on this thread), except it takes me the same amount of time to do a 300 as it takes them to do a 400! -I find that 20 x 200 at current mile pace (not goal mile pace) with a 200 super easy jog ends with my lactate around 3.5. Just putting that out there. -I have not found the heart rate correlation to be quite as linear as others. Sometimes I can get my HR up to 170 and keep my lactate below 3.0. Other times that sends me up above threshold. I find, with a few exceptions, if I stay below 168, I’m safely below 3.5, but at the threshold, the results vary wildly (I appreciate that last sentence might seem inconsistent with the ethos of this thread, but I play around with things for the sake of experimentation). -For some reason, my lactate tends to go above 3.0 at 168 at low altitude and closer to 170 at 7000 and 8000 ft. No clue why. -On a couple of occasions, I found out I was about to get sick through my lactate meter. On sessions when I felt fine and I kept my HR below the typical thresholds, my lactate was through the roof, totally unexpectedly (8-plus). One time I got bronchitis the next day. The other, a 24-hour flu. -I find that a bad night’s sleep can also send the lactate through the roof. I check my body battery whenever I’m doing a thresh sesh and make sure it’s not atypically low. If it is, I drop the volume by 20% and HR by 5 beats a minute, and that usually works out ok for me. For me, the lactate meter is much more sensitive to life stress than HRM. -I’m also a volunteer track coach, and I apply a version of these principals to the athletes I coach. Mostly high school kids, but I coach a couple of national-class masters athletes as well. -I keep the X element for kids I coach, because three sessions of threshold is hard for most of them mentally, and I think it matters for distances under 5k. -This training is not effective for the 800, in case anyone might have any illusions about that. It’s fine for athletes that are new to the sport that just need to strength to run two good laps, but for boys near 2 and girls near 2:20, this methodology is not effective by itself, though sometimes I do half a threshold session with some added intensity at the end, and that has been fairly effective as a hybrid workout. -For anyone training for the mile to the half marathon, I think this training is markedly superior to Daniels-style training, or Vo2 max training. After I ran ultras, I spent my late 30s doing countless iterations of intense-style training. Kept getting injured and barely got better. -I’m on a 320-day running streak now. Most days I run at least an hour a day. Never felt better.
Another way for the approach "run as many miles as fast as possible" without lactate testing but using a simple running watch can be the following:
- Set your "threshold" pace and HR to 88 to 90% of your HRmax. Enter this value as LTHR in your Garmin.
- Total the recovery time suggested by Garmin for each workout of the week as total recovery time per week in h.
- Do 2 or 3 sub-threshold workouts per week, 3 or 4 easy runs. Easy runs of 55-65 min each. One easy run longer. Dial the pace of your easy runs AND the volume of the sub-threshold work to yield a total recovery time per week of 168 h.
- As you get fitter, you can increase your pace of the easy runs and/or the volume of sub-threshold runs. But stick to the 168h and aim for as much fast volume as possible (however not exceeding 25% of total mileage) with easy runs @70% HRmax.
Have fun!
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.
-I have not found the heart rate correlation to be quite as linear as others. Sometimes I can get my HR up to 170 and keep my lactate below 3.0. Other times that sends me up above threshold. I find, with a few exceptions, if I stay below 168, I’m safely below 3.5, but at the threshold, the results vary wildly (I appreciate that last sentence might seem inconsistent with the ethos of this thread, but I play around with things for the sake of experimentation). -For some reason, my lactate tends to go above 3.0 at 168 at low altitude and closer to 170 at 7000 and 8000 ft. No clue why.
Better late than never my friend.
Thanks for the excellent post and data, highly valuable still.
I'm curious, do you run any sessions on the treadmill, or all outdoors?
I fear I may have discovered this thread too late! I too have been training with a modified version of Norwegian training. Not quite the same as Sirpoc’s, but similar enough. I too have been running PRs at an age where I would not have expected that such things would be possible (age 46). I’m not as fast in the 5k as I was many moons ago as a DIII college runner, but I’m close. And for distances over 8k, I’m better than I ever was.
Some comments and thoughts that perhaps add something to this very long thread. -As background, I live at nearly 8000 ft. of elevation. I was more of a speed guy back in the day (4:07-1500) who was relatively weak in longer distances (16:07 5k, 27:28 8k) (dare I say, "fast twitch"). I can still run a 27-second 200 at 46. I used to be able to run a 52-second split on a 4x4.
-My marathon PR is 2:59, which I ran while training for the Leadville 100 (which I finished in 23 hours) with just jogging the mountains as training. I suspect I can knock 10 minutes off that if I dedicate myself to it, but just haven’t had time or motivation to do so. I just ran my first sub hour 10 mile three days ago. I ran my first sub 36 10k four days before that. I’m at low elevations while visiting the inlaws, so clustering in some time trials. Never did an interval longer than 6:15 in training. My quads are thrashed from back-to-back long time trials, so not sure I’d recommend that! -I train with a HRM and test lactate after most of my workouts. -I typically do 2-3 threshold sessions a week. I sometimes do a Bakken-style “x” element workout when I’m training for something shorter than 5k. I aim for 20-25% of my volume in thresholds. I do my easy days sub 70% of max HR, which ain’t easy at 8000 feet when nothing is flat. Plenty of hills in my neighborhood force my pace to slower than 10’ a mile. Sometimes I’m sub-7 sub 120 HR on the downs. -I occasionally do a 20 x 300 off 1’ (jogging the remaining 100 of the 400) at 5k pace. As long as I stick to current (not goal) 5k pace, I find that my lactate stays below 3.5 mmol/l on those sessions. If I do these in 62.x, I’ll be around 3 mmol/l. That’s low 17s for 5k at 7000’. For folks that want to pursue this training, this is similar to the 20 x 400 session that the Ingebrigtens (occasionally) do (Bakken wrote about it in the article published previously on this thread), except it takes me the same amount of time to do a 300 as it takes them to do a 400! -I find that 20 x 200 at current mile pace (not goal mile pace) with a 200 super easy jog ends with my lactate around 3.5. Just putting that out there. -I have not found the heart rate correlation to be quite as linear as others. Sometimes I can get my HR up to 170 and keep my lactate below 3.0. Other times that sends me up above threshold. I find, with a few exceptions, if I stay below 168, I’m safely below 3.5, but at the threshold, the results vary wildly (I appreciate that last sentence might seem inconsistent with the ethos of this thread, but I play around with things for the sake of experimentation). -For some reason, my lactate tends to go above 3.0 at 168 at low altitude and closer to 170 at 7000 and 8000 ft. No clue why. -On a couple of occasions, I found out I was about to get sick through my lactate meter. On sessions when I felt fine and I kept my HR below the typical thresholds, my lactate was through the roof, totally unexpectedly (8-plus). One time I got bronchitis the next day. The other, a 24-hour flu. -I find that a bad night’s sleep can also send the lactate through the roof. I check my body battery whenever I’m doing a thresh sesh and make sure it’s not atypically low. If it is, I drop the volume by 20% and HR by 5 beats a minute, and that usually works out ok for me. For me, the lactate meter is much more sensitive to life stress than HRM. -I’m also a volunteer track coach, and I apply a version of these principals to the athletes I coach. Mostly high school kids, but I coach a couple of national-class masters athletes as well. -I keep the X element for kids I coach, because three sessions of threshold is hard for most of them mentally, and I think it matters for distances under 5k. -This training is not effective for the 800, in case anyone might have any illusions about that. It’s fine for athletes that are new to the sport that just need to strength to run two good laps, but for boys near 2 and girls near 2:20, this methodology is not effective by itself, though sometimes I do half a threshold session with some added intensity at the end, and that has been fairly effective as a hybrid workout. -For anyone training for the mile to the half marathon, I think this training is markedly superior to Daniels-style training, or Vo2 max training. After I ran ultras, I spent my late 30s doing countless iterations of intense-style training. Kept getting injured and barely got better. -I’m on a 320-day running streak now. Most days I run at least an hour a day. Never felt better.
-I have not found the heart rate correlation to be quite as linear as others. Sometimes I can get my HR up to 170 and keep my lactate below 3.0. Other times that sends me up above threshold. I find, with a few exceptions, if I stay below 168, I’m safely below 3.5, but at the threshold, the results vary wildly (I appreciate that last sentence might seem inconsistent with the ethos of this thread, but I play around with things for the sake of experimentation). -For some reason, my lactate tends to go above 3.0 at 168 at low altitude and closer to 170 at 7000 and 8000 ft. No clue why.
Better late than never my friend.
Thanks for the excellent post and data, highly valuable still.
I'm curious, do you run any sessions on the treadmill, or all outdoors?
I do. But my treadmill is definitely not calibrated correctly. But I've figured out how to get to 2.5 mmol/l, which is all I care about.
I’m thinking about running a marathon this year. Does anyone feel like they’ve successfully applied this type of training to marathon training, and if so, how?
My current thought is that if I were to do this, I would do two thresholds and a long run tempo most weeks. Or maybe my alternate training as espoused by this thread with that schedule every other week. Almost every top-notch marathoner I’ve ever read about, including Shorter, Rodgers, Kipchoge, Kiptum, etc.—all do/did longer, continuous tempo efforts. Bakken says long continuous efforts are needed for good marathons. I was thinking about dialing in 2-hour to runs to finish with lactate at 2.5 mmol. Though I have no idea how I would do that at this stage or what paces would get me there.
I think Sirpoc has argued in favor three thresholds and an easy two-hour run for marathon training.
Does anyone have any evidence, however anecdotal, that the latter approach would be superior to the former? I know that Hard2Find laid out his approach earlier, so I’ve seen that.
My hypothesis is that some sustained quality efforts are needed to run a marathon to one’s full potential. But I’m no expert, and I’m open to contrary evidence, if people think it’s out there. And since I have felt good and had no injuries with this approach, I'd rather not deviate too far from it.
I’m thinking about running a marathon this year. Does anyone feel like they’ve successfully applied this type of training to marathon training, and if so, how?
My current thought is that if I were to do this, I would do two thresholds and a long run tempo most weeks. Or maybe my alternate training as espoused by this thread with that schedule every other week. Almost every top-notch marathoner I’ve ever read about, including Shorter, Rodgers, Kipchoge, Kiptum, etc.—all do/did longer, continuous tempo efforts. Bakken says long continuous efforts are needed for good marathons. I was thinking about dialing in 2-hour to runs to finish with lactate at 2.5 mmol. Though I have no idea how I would do that at this stage or what paces would get me there.
I think Sirpoc has argued in favor three thresholds and an easy two-hour run for marathon training.
Does anyone have any evidence, however anecdotal, that the latter approach would be superior to the former? I know that Hard2Find laid out his approach earlier, so I’ve seen that.
My hypothesis is that some sustained quality efforts are needed to run a marathon to one’s full potential. But I’m no expert, and I’m open to contrary evidence, if people think it’s out there. And since I have felt good and had no injuries with this approach, I'd rather not deviate too far from it.
Thanks.
There may have been parts in this thread where it was referenced and I know this will sound cliche, but I think the modern philosophy on the marathon is that you want to drive your LT1 down as close to your LT2 to be truly marathon fit.
I think it was Unbelief who jumped on me before for suggesting LT1 is approximately 150 minute race pace. Well, better trained runners are indeed producing such little lactate at that pace the difference between LT1 (~150 minute race pace) and LT2 (~60 minute race pace) is minimal. Thus, squeezing their LT1 down very close to their LT2. Canova would put it as, you don't want to be in peak 10km shape if you're planning to run your best marathon because you'd be producing too much lactate at marathon pace to be metabolically optimized.
As far as implementing training in a way you're describing, the following may be of interest. It's general template Ryan Hall and Meb Keflezighi used when they were with the Mammoth group:
Long Run w/ Fartlek Easy + Hill Sprints Long Intervals Easy Short Tempo Run + Short Intervals Easy Long w/ Tempo
Easy Easy + Hill Sprints Long Intervals Medium Long Run Easy Long Tempo Run Easy