Coincidentally, some of us from the thread were recently discussing the topic of lactate testing and lab protocol (during a secret meeting to plan sirpoc’s clandestine speed workouts for January).
The revelation of SDHJ’s lactate test and thoughtfully shared point regarding personalization, made me think of the Hadd thread and how his core principles parallel this thread. Particularly, how one’s general aerobic conditioning is often the biggest limiter. For those interested, I’ll link a summary document that was put together years ago by a follower of that thread.
Hadd’s 5*2400m HR Test protocol is the main aspect which I thought may be helpful to those without a lactate meter and/or those who feel they may be “underdeveloped” aerobically. Without going into all the detail (it’s included in the document), the general test protocol is the following:
2400m at 70% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 75% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 80% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 85% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 90% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery
You could use the first 800m to lock into the effort/pace then take the time and average HR value for each 1600m as the representative value for that repeat. The objective being that you want to see a “tight” relationship across the entire spectrum of paces, thus indicating you have a strong aerobic engine. A good relationship would be approximately 4-5 seconds per 400m difference as you move through those HR percentages. So, for example:
1:46 per 400m @ 70% HRMax 1:42 per 400m @ 75% HRMax 1:38 per 400m @ 80% HRMax 1:34 per 400m @ 85% HRMax 1:30 per 400m @ 90% HRMax
There are obviously many test protocols one could create, as have been shared already on the thread. The main motivation for sharing this one though is the feedback it provides across a spectrum of paces, as opposed to one specific pace.
Hope everyone is enjoying their holiday and best of luck in your 2024 training and racing!
Coincidentally, some of us from the thread were recently discussing the topic of lactate testing and lab protocol (during a secret meeting to plan sirpoc’s clandestine speed workouts for January).
The revelation of SDHJ’s lactate test and thoughtfully shared point regarding personalization, made me think of the Hadd thread and how his core principles parallel this thread. Particularly, how one’s general aerobic conditioning is often the biggest limiter. For those interested, I’ll link a summary document that was put together years ago by a follower of that thread.
Hadd’s 5*2400m HR Test protocol is the main aspect which I thought may be helpful to those without a lactate meter and/or those who feel they may be “underdeveloped” aerobically. Without going into all the detail (it’s included in the document), the general test protocol is the following:
2400m at 70% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 75% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 80% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 85% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery 2400m at 90% HRMax with 90 seconds recovery
You could use the first 800m to lock into the effort/pace then take the time and average HR value for each 1600m as the representative value for that repeat. The objective being that you want to see a “tight” relationship across the entire spectrum of paces, thus indicating you have a strong aerobic engine. A good relationship would be approximately 4-5 seconds per 400m difference as you move through those HR percentages. So, for example:
1:46 per 400m @ 70% HRMax 1:42 per 400m @ 75% HRMax 1:38 per 400m @ 80% HRMax 1:34 per 400m @ 85% HRMax 1:30 per 400m @ 90% HRMax
There are obviously many test protocols one could create, as have been shared already on the thread. The main motivation for sharing this one though is the feedback it provides across a spectrum of paces, as opposed to one specific pace.
Hope everyone is enjoying their holiday and best of luck in your 2024 training and racing!
Everyone so horny for the latest from sirpoc that the joke is going over their head. Pretty sure Hard2Find is just poking fun at the randos showing up in this thread saying sirpoc is running secret speed sessions that is he doesn't share.
Everyone so horny for the latest from sirpoc that the joke is going over their head. Pretty sure Hard2Find is just poking fun at the randos showing up in this thread saying sirpoc is running secret speed sessions that is he doesn't share.
Haha… it was indeed just a humorous remark in reference to those who think sirpoc is doing some type of hidden speed work.
Something I should add to my post is how Hadd utilized a 10 mile (~60 minute) tempo with the intent of seeing the pace and HR for the tempo align with that achieved on the 2400m interval at ~85% HRMax. That would be the signal that you’ve reached your target from the perspective of fully establishing an aerobic base.
Also, to clarify, I don’t think you have to follow Hadd’s approach regarding workouts (he primarily utilized straight tempos, as opposed to intervals ) but the general principle of “pushing” the threshold down as opposed to “pulling” it down, paired with the emphasis on being patient and consistent and not forcing the training, I think, is the emphasis of a threshold based training system. Using his test protocol is primarily a way to get a concrete estimate of the pace and HR (if using that) to stay between. Meaning, where your fitness is actually at as opposed to where it should theoretically be, as was the case with SDHJ’s recent experience.
P.S. If you do read the document, it talks in detail about all of this. Also, the athlete Hadd highlighted to convey his approach returned to training after a long layoff later in life and, like sirpoc, ran near exclusively tempo efforts, yet continued to improve his race times. Hmm… must have been those secret speed sessions haha
I would be interesting to see how Jecht fares with this training method.
Go for it Jecht and report back in a few months.
It would be really impressive if it also works for moderately talented people (no offense).
Thank you, no offense taken. I actually would say I have little talent so was not offended, and appreciate your post. I am going to see it, using honest #s where I'm at (21-22-ish 5k, but using that data from a solo TT on a track).
(Just realize that you won't be quite as fast for a solo "race" as you would for a real race. In fact you'll probably be about 5% slower when doing it by yourself. We tend to feel sorry for ourselves when alone and much less so when in a real race. And also understand that if you insist on using a real race for this test of LTHR then the race distance needs to be long enough to require you take an hour to finish it at an all-out, race effort. Please don't ask me why. I find very athletes who understand the answer. Don't need to add to my frustration over this topic.)
In a related matter, "Herm" asked in a recent comment how often I find that LTHR changes during a season. Hardly at all. Once in decent condition it is quite stable. What changes is how fast or powerful you are at that heart rate. So I have athletes do the 30-minute test about every 4 to 8 weeks – not to find their LTHRs, but rather their functional threshold power or pace (FTP). Basically, I'm just confirming LTHR. It will vary a few beats per minute from one test to the next but that is usually insignificant. Power and pace is what we really want to see change. You won't go faster because your heart rate is higher but rather because your pace is greater or you are more powerful
I would be interesting to see how Jecht fares with this training method.
Go for it Jecht and report back in a few months.
It would be really impressive if it also works for moderately talented people (no offense).
Thank you, no offense taken. I actually would say I have little talent so was not offended, and appreciate your post. I am going to see it, using honest #s where I'm at (21-22-ish 5k, but using that data from a solo TT on a track).
Also no offense, but while “this training method” might be great for you and for many other runners, I think you’ll do well with a few changes in perspective/attitude and by being able to maintain the right kind of solid, consistent training week after week, year after year.
That consistent, well-managed alone can make a runner considerably faster while going through different training styles/plans to see what works for them. And then finding the “right” way for them is the next step in elevating their performance. But I believe you’ve merely scratched the surface on step 1.
And say that as someone who appreciates any number of good aspects of your attitude and as one who has respected your improvement across one year of training and your comeback from a tough break in another. Kudos to you for getting lots of good running in and managing some respectable times while falling prey to common training and racing problems, though.
Thank you so much for this thread! I read the majority of it months back now having googled cycling sweetspot for running. I've been at this 3 months now and I have made a huge breakthrough. I'm not fast by any stretch of the imagination!!! But I was churning away from a Daniels plan on training peaks for 3-4 cycles for a year and couldn't break 20 sadly. I've basically followed this plan absolutely to how it was laid out page 1 with 3x sub threshold - with if I'm unsure, going slower rather than faster. Anyway, my Christmas Park Run, 18:59!! I was happy to break 20 so to break 19 after only a few months of this I just couldn't believe it. I think it has been mentioned, but you have to stick with it! I really didn't feel like anything was happening for a while. Then maybe 8 weeks in a huge ahhhhhhhhh moment happened when literally everything got easier all at once. I knew I was going to break 20 but I don't think even I was prepared for 18:59!! Anyway I just thought this might help anyone who is unsure if this is for them! Happy new year everyone!!
You have to switch easy days to eliptical or cross trainer and keep Volume Of The sessions High because The whole idea of this system is to get a lot of volume at Treshold intensity
You have to switch easy days to eliptical or cross trainer and keep Volume Of The sessions High because The whole idea of this system is to get a lot of volume at Treshold intensity
Ah yes, because the two Hobby Jogger poster boys who have made this system semi famous, Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen and our very own LRC sirpoc84, they are always doing elliptical and cross trainer when you see their Strava workouts.
Nice to see the thread going, I haven't logged in for a while.
Very happy with a new PB of 16:55. Feel like on a fast course could be easily into the 16:40s.
One thing I will say, is the debate is fantastic , but keep it simple. If you don't or won't or can't use a lactate meter, I still stand by the paces roughly I started with posting. I've helped a good few people out, the reps from 1k(3-4 mins) up to 3k+ (or 10 mins) seem to be working the best.
As long as you know your current fitness, a good starting point is still 1k reps at no faster than 15k pace, 1600m reps at a fraction slower than 10 mile pace, 2k reps at HM pace up to 25k pace - and 3k reps around 25-30k pace. This as a starting point. You might find it shifts a little per individual, but having helped a few people now, I don't think those as a starting point, has sent anyone into the crazy spheres of being trashed. Obviously the number of reps is important, but stick still to around a max of 25% sub Threshold over the 3 days ( in terms of time in zone) of your total weekly volume. So if you are doing maybe 5 hours a week, but then you start trying to run 10x1k , you'll obviously wreck yourself. 5 hours a week, would be 75 mins total spread across 3 workouts, 5.5 hours would be 82-83 mins, 6 hours 90 mins- and so on. Less than 5 hours, probably isn't going to work. There's probably a cap on doing this in singles, that's probably 8+ zone.
Easy runs still cap at an absolute max of 70% MHR to make it even more simpl, rather than starting to talk about MAS.
If you want to begin and just try this out for 4-6 weeks, I honestly don't think you need to over complicate it more than this as a pure starting point. Considering we are 50 pages in, that's still relatively simple. Once you get past that stage, then maybe start to dig around in the weeds and tweak things a bit or looking into the training metrics and stuff talked about. But give it a good month to 6 weeks without worrying about anything too much than just following the basics.
Edit: one other thing, "Fusio" has made the group on Strava, I don't even know how to stare the link to stuff like that, but there's a good number of people on there and it's already proved useful with some guys and gals sharing snippets of things.
Bumping...love this thread.
Interesting correlation: Using a very conservative 22:20 5k right now, with actual current fitness (not goal or hoped-for fitness), the times show up like this:
3k reps (25-30k pace): 7:57-8:02 pace
2k reps (13.1-25k pace): 7:52-7:57 pace
1600m reps (just slower than 10M pace): 7:45 pace (7:43 10M calculation)
1k reps (15k pace): 7:40 pace
EZ runs: 10:09-10:31 (which dovetails with my normal EZ 135-140 HR). Even running 9:00-10:00 is too fast!
This post was edited 31 seconds after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Edited for clarification.
Interesting correlation: Using a very conservative 22:20 5k right now, with actual current fitness (not goal or hoped-for fitness), the times show up like this:
3k reps (25-30k pace): 7:57-8:02 pace
2k reps (13.1-25k pace): 7:52-7:57 pace
1600m reps (just slower than 10M pace): 7:45 pace (7:43 10M calculation)
1k reps (15k pace): 7:40 pace
EZ runs: 10:09-10:31 (which dovetails with my normal EZ 135-140 HR). Even running 9:00-10:00 is too fast!
Dude, that's crazy. If you are in 22 shape right now those reps are way too slow. 8:00 isn't much slower than your easy days probably should be You are going to need some 5k pace efforts in there, it's really the only way to get faster at the distance. Some 10k reps there's some evidence that will help. But if your goal is 5k. Literally any sensible training plan is going to have some 5k pace workout, probably the backend of the week along with a straight tempo somewhere in there. That is bread and butter. Even at your current 5k pace, if not goal pace. Thank me later 😎
What does the model look like in the base phase, while building up to the threshold?
I was reading this thread about K. Ingebrigtsen's training, , 3Q + a long run seems to be a bit much at lower mileage (40mpw). Is it needed? Would another easy run work instad? How should the model be adjusted for that mileage?
Saw this thread awhile back and wanted to comment...so if I'm a 17-minute 5k runner, I gather the equivalent paces, and then do the workouts at 1k-3k intervals as noted (later on in the thread, I read the entire thing).
How long do I actually do these for (3 EZ +3 T + 1 LR) even if I just run the paces over and over again correctly? Will the HR drop?
It sounds somewhat like Maffetone-adapted threshold training--not with Phil's junk science per se, and I'm NOT insulting it at all--but dependent on the paces just getting easier over time and HR dropping--i.e. running a 3k rep at 25k-30k pace (6:03-6:07 for 17m 5k equiv)--but the HR going from 160 to 140? And then conversely being able to run all out much faster for 5k at say, 180-190?
Interesting correlation: Using a very conservative 22:20 5k right now, with actual current fitness (not goal or hoped-for fitness), the times show up like this:
3k reps (25-30k pace): 7:57-8:02 pace
2k reps (13.1-25k pace): 7:52-7:57 pace
1600m reps (just slower than 10M pace): 7:45 pace (7:43 10M calculation)
1k reps (15k pace): 7:40 pace
EZ runs: 10:09-10:31 (which dovetails with my normal EZ 135-140 HR). Even running 9:00-10:00 is too fast!
Dude, that's crazy. If you are in 22 shape right now those reps are way too slow. 8:00 isn't much slower than your easy days probably should be You are going to need some 5k pace efforts in there, it's really the only way to get faster at the distance. Some 10k reps there's some evidence that will help. But if your goal is 5k. Literally any sensible training plan is going to have some 5k pace workout, probably the backend of the week along with a straight tempo somewhere in there. That is bread and butter. Even at your current 5k pace, if not goal pace. Thank me later 😎
Thanks for your help, no sarcasm. I'm just going conservative based on the calculator, tinman effort and what sirpoc wrote in post 992! (Most runners try to run these too fast!).
I'm just seeing how this threshold training can help me at 5k first before going back up in distance. Have a great day!
Dude, that's crazy. If you are in 22 shape right now those reps are way too slow. 8:00 isn't much slower than your easy days probably should be You are going to need some 5k pace efforts in there, it's really the only way to get faster at the distance. Some 10k reps there's some evidence that will help. But if your goal is 5k. Literally any sensible training plan is going to have some 5k pace workout, probably the backend of the week along with a straight tempo somewhere in there. That is bread and butter. Even at your current 5k pace, if not goal pace. Thank me later 😎
I think this whole thread has gone way over your head. I follow both sirpoc84 and Kristoffer on Strava as well, I've NEVER seen sirpoc84 post a workout faster than 12k pace and I've seen him break his 5k PB numerous times, very close to breaking 16. Same for KI, admittedly until recently he hasn't done anything faster than around 10-12k pace. sirpoc has mentioned I believe in this very thread, there is a point even with this that you cannot and won't improve anymore without changing something up. Considering Kristoffer has been going a bit longer than sirpoc, he probably hit that point first. I did, notice, Kristoffer has been doing reps, paces, sessions that sirpoc has was doing first, so maybe they are communicating and learning from each other, which I would find pretty cool.
I think this is simple in many ways that it also comes round to be complicated. People just are not getting I don't think that you really don't have to run 5k pace in practice, to race 5k pace.
Jecht, keep doing what you are doing. This system from the months of feedback we now have on the thread is clearly working for more, than not. That isn't to say this is magic system like the Swedish troll might tell you, but it's likely most will see good gains this way, just not guaranteed.
Saw this thread awhile back and wanted to comment...so if I'm a 17-minute 5k runner, I gather the equivalent paces, and then do the workouts at 1k-3k intervals as noted (later on in the thread, I read the entire thing).
How long do I actually do these for (3 EZ +3 T + 1 LR) even if I just run the paces over and over again correctly? Will the HR drop?
It sounds somewhat like Maffetone-adapted threshold training--not with Phil's junk science per se, and I'm NOT insulting it at all--but dependent on the paces just getting easier over time and HR dropping--i.e. running a 3k rep at 25k-30k pace (6:03-6:07 for 17m 5k equiv)--but the HR going from 160 to 140? And then conversely being able to run all out much faster for 5k at say, 180-190?
I genuinely don't get what you mean. You keep doing them. Then you improve, change your paces to faster ones, then run the same reps. Then repeat. It's nothing really to do with maffetone, or HR coming down. If you are running these are sub threshold, say 165-170 when your LTHR is 175, then in a month you are suddenly doing the same pace range, at 140-145, you've obviously got fitter. Ideally race, or at worst time trial, plug new paces back in and go again. I suggest you join the Strava group or follow Jakobs brother or sirpoc on Strava and it will probably make more sense.