Thanks for your input jiggy! How have you decided what your most important workout has been up to this point?
I still have so much to figure out, such as identifying key workouts of the bunch. On one hand, I've seen folks mention the importance of focusing on strengths, such that a former sprinter (aka me) might get more out of the 1k/3-minute reps vs the 3k/10-minute reps. On the other hand, I've seen it mentioned that focusing on your weakness might be the key, so that I would flip the previous scenario and focus more on the longer intervals to build aerobic fitness a bit more.
Because I'm unsure which approach is wiser, I've opted to just cycle between 3-min, 6-min, and 10-min reps, and have enjoyed them all. Definitely keeps things from being to mundane. Due to my lack of 5k speed, I don't hit 1k/2k/3k for these reps, and thus time is my focus.
I don't enjoy the treadmill at all, but maybe it'll be okay for workouts since I find the faster speeds more enjoyable. Easy runs on the treadmill are the worst, and I always feel like I'm moving faster for a given pace than I am outdoors. But yeah, in these brutal southern summers, paces come way down, and that can be terrible for consistency. I am certainly enjoying the weather lately!
To be honest, I haven't.
I just keep rotating a bunch of workouts that have been doing the job.
Anywhere from 400 m to 3 km reps. On the treadmill I haven't done anything shorter than 1.5 km reps.
I think if you're looking for a wise approach, it would be to:
1) Do what you can repeat consistently.
2) Find a combination that you enjoy.
3) Do vary between duration length to allow faster speed at shorter distances.
Some other guys he speaks to more might know more, but looks like according to Strava sirpoc84 breaks 1:15 for the half, 1:14:2x? Hard to know with Strava what is accurate. But based on the training simplicity of this thread, simply remarkable and almost unbelievable, if accurate.
Yep, I'm seeing the same HM PR on Strava. Absolutely fascinating stuff to witness!
Following the thread, so what outside of 30-35 mins moderate X3 is the sirpoc guy doing a week? He can't just be doing that and easy to run 1:14 and a low 16. What is the ultimate xfactor here? I just don't think we have the whole picture here.
Following the thread, so what outside of 30-35 mins moderate X3 is the sirpoc guy doing a week? He can't just be doing that and easy to run 1:14 and a low 16. What is the ultimate xfactor here? I just don't think we have the whole picture here.
It's not just moderate per say, he's working just below LT2 which is the optimal zone for working one of the most trainable parts of your aerobic system. You can bring your threshold pace up much closer to your v02 max pace by doing this, without actually training the v02 max zone, which is much less trainable anyway by directly targetting.
He's also running close to 100k a week now with 90 mins of this at threshold. If you do this properly and don't over train for 2 or 3 months you will seriously see the gains. IMO he could be doing it even more specific by using a treadmill for workouts which would allow to control for a lot more variables, but when you're doing the thresholds properly they are going to gradually get faster. I think it's entirely realistic to get these sorts of gains tbh
It's not just moderate per say, he's working just below LT2 which is the optimal zone for working one of the most trainable parts of your aerobic system. You can bring your threshold pace up much closer to your v02 max pace by doing this, without actually training the v02 max zone, which is much less trainable anyway by directly targetting.
He's also running close to 100k a week now with 90 mins of this at threshold. If you do this properly and don't over train for 2 or 3 months you will seriously see the gains. IMO he could be doing it even more specific by using a treadmill for workouts which would allow to control for a lot more variables, but when you're doing the thresholds properly they are going to gradually get faster. I think it's entirely realistic to get these sorts of gains tbh
I'm not sure I'm buying it completely either. We have had all these threads over the years of guys spending a whole lifetime trying to break 1:15 etc and getting nowhere near. Yet some random 40 year old dude who was a solid but slow ish 18:50 runner does what most serious runners would consider pretty easy workouts, 3x a week and what most serious runners would consider 4 days really slow and that's it? You crack 1:15? If that's the case he's just put all coaches out of a job and we should all just follow this. It cannot be that simple.
It's not just moderate per say, he's working just below LT2 which is the optimal zone for working one of the most trainable parts of your aerobic system. You can bring your threshold pace up much closer to your v02 max pace by doing this, without actually training the v02 max zone, which is much less trainable anyway by directly targetting.
He's also running close to 100k a week now with 90 mins of this at threshold. If you do this properly and don't over train for 2 or 3 months you will seriously see the gains. IMO he could be doing it even more specific by using a treadmill for workouts which would allow to control for a lot more variables, but when you're doing the thresholds properly they are going to gradually get faster. I think it's entirely realistic to get these sorts of gains tbh
I'm not sure I'm buying it completely either. We have had all these threads over the years of guys spending a whole lifetime trying to break 1:15 etc and getting nowhere near. Yet some random 40 year old dude who was a solid but slow ish 18:50 runner does what most serious runners would consider pretty easy workouts, 3x a week and what most serious runners would consider 4 days really slow and that's it? You crack 1:15? If that's the case he's just put all coaches out of a job and we should all just follow this. It cannot be that simple.
Hmmm, maybe you should try it for yourself for 6 months and then come back and report the progress?
Jakob and his brothers aren't just world class because of talent, they took an engineering approach to mid-long distance running. It comes down to some pretty basic principles of just a lot of threshold work and lots of easy running.
You need to understand why you're running the workouts. You can go and hypothetically kill yourself in all your workouts, but what are you actually training? Doing crazy fast repeats will only give you marginal vo2 max benefits and form benefits. To actually get fast you need to be training the sub LT2 zone whilst keeping the easy runs aerobic enough to recover and benefit from the training. This zone is seriously trainable.
Personally I'm quite a bit faster than 1:15 so always try to be careful about talking about how easy it is to run certain times as a lot of people get caught up on the 'talent' aspect and how they will never be able to do something. But I think if you train your whole life to break 1:15 and can't do it then you are just not training properly. From your comment it seems like you are doing your easy runs way too fast, and maybe your hard runs way too hard also? I would recommend that you take the next 6 months to copy his running plan, but you need to make sure that you get the effort levels right.
Btw I read this thread a few months back and started implementing double thresholds with these principles and had the biggest performance jump I've had in the past 3 years.
Hmmm, maybe you should try it for yourself for 6 months and then come back and report the progress? ...
A bit of science would sort this out. I'm sure we can find 5 people just in this thread to do this training in earnest, either singles or doubles, and another 5 to carry on their normal training, and see what happens after 2, 4, 6 months.
I still haven't read the thread but gut feel is that sirpoc, may peace be upon Him, just has the genes and loads of LT work is what unlocked it for him. Otherwise, it's, very crudely, what most hobbyjoggers including me do - do most runs "easy", except in reality their "easy" is closer to LT than actual easy, <75%, conversational effort. Until this year 100% of my easy runs were basically sub-LT, 85-90%, and I don't think it did anything magical for me at all.
Hmmm, maybe you should try it for yourself for 6 months and then come back and report the progress? ...
A bit of science would sort this out. I'm sure we can find 5 people just in this thread to do this training in earnest, either singles or doubles, and another 5 to carry on their normal training, and see what happens after 2, 4, 6 months.
I still haven't read the thread but gut feel is that sirpoc, may peace be upon Him, just has the genes and loads of LT work is what unlocked it for him. Otherwise, it's, very crudely, what most hobbyjoggers including me do - do most runs "easy", except in reality their "easy" is closer to LT than actual easy, <75%, conversational effort. Until this year 100% of my easy runs were basically sub-LT, 85-90%, and I don't think it did anything magical for me at all.
So you didn't actually train this way, you just heavily overtrained with everything at 85-90% HR? That totally neglects the idea of the plan.
So you didn't actually train this way, you just heavily overtrained with everything at 85-90% HR? That totally neglects the idea of the plan.
No I didn't follow this method, I just ran at default/autopilot pace all the time. Even though that amounts to a ton of sub-LT work I appreciate it's not a real comparison. I'd like to see the outcome of this 5 v 5 experiment though.
A bit of science would sort this out. I'm sure we can find 5 people just in this thread to do this training in earnest, either singles or doubles, and another 5 to carry on their normal training, and see what happens after 2, 4, 6 months.
I still haven't read the thread but gut feel is that sirpoc, may peace be upon Him, just has the genes and loads of LT work is what unlocked it for him. Otherwise, it's, very crudely, what most hobbyjoggers including me do - do most runs "easy", except in reality their "easy" is closer to LT than actual easy, <75%, conversational effort. Until this year 100% of my easy runs were basically sub-LT, 85-90%, and I don't think it did anything magical for me at all.
I can only speak for myself, but in 2020 right before the Pandemic I did more of the conventional stuff ~ VO2 to the well workouts, easier runs "harder" etc. I was training as hard as I had since college/right after it. I was dealing with sicknesses, fatigue etc decently often as a result. My BK Half race got cancelled (due to COVID), and I did some Time Trials instead. I managed an OK mile time trial (course was short ~ probably a 4:50). I tanked a 3K time trial, and I was feeling pretty done with post-collegiate training. Meanwhile since then, I adopted a lot of the principles in this thread and despite being older, I feel fresher in training than ever before. I've run faster in the mile on abbreviated buildups (two years in a row), and I've found the principles work well for the marathon/half as well (with the adjustment of long runs). Yes running long reps with short rest can be a bit "boring," but staying healthy and improving is the right type of boring as opposed to crashing and burning.
I think everybody doubting it is missing how consistently he’s been training like this. Without fail, he runs an hour easy 3/week, 90 mins easy 1/week, and 3 subT workouts/week. And he’s done that every week for over a year.
Most hobbyjoggers, myself included, struggle to make it thru a single 10-12 week block following a “traditional” plan without missing more runs to injury/burnout/whatever than he’s missed in a year. For him and KI, the plan is enough to keep seeing gains long term without breaking down. And I'm betting that’s not exclusive to just them
What a thread here. Looking for some insight - have done both an aerobic and anaerobic threshold test. the two thresholds are 17% apart from each other, meaning I've got some aerobic deficiency going on. Right now I have 5 easy runs, 1 sub T workout, and 1 "long" run (really starting over with running here so easy runs are 30 mins and long run is 45 mins rn). Would I be better off going all easy? I'm thinking of adding a second and eventually a third sub T session once I retest my aerobic threshold over time to get it closer to the 10% figure that is discussed on the Uphill Athlete forums. Curious your thoughts on how many sub T sessions I should currently include in my week. Thanks!
A lot of it has already been covered. But I haven't posted in a while so I will over my morning coffee.
Firstly, I find it hilarious people think I might be secretly doing some "special" work, as if I would come on a niche internet forum to lie about it ha ha. No, just 4x easy (including easy "long") and 3x sub threshold, with the odd parkrun thrown in to keep me honest, see how/if I've improved and just to stop myself getting bored. It's very boring, I've seen that mentioned. But I enjoy getting better, this is the best way , I believe, for most people to get better. I was cycling roughly like this 10 years ago. So after a bit of disappointment messing around with Daniels style, this is where I am at.
Someone also mentioned consistency. Absolutely spot on. I've said before, if I wanted to get fit in maybe 8 weeks, this is probably the worse way to train. But if you don't have a specific distance in mind from 5k (maybe less, I haven't tried) through HM, it's a really good generalised plan, with little risk. But you really do have to think long term. Miracles aren't going to happen overnight. As I said, if you maybe only have 6-8 weeks, roll the dice and do a more aggressive plan and see what happens. But if you are thinking 6+ months, then this in my opinion, is the best go to.
On the subject of talent, I don't think I'm especially talented. I have no evidence of that particularly. But I do know I have zero natural speed. It was the same on the bike. I could train myself to go from untrained on the bike to 320w FTP at a pretty light weight, but my max 5 seconds power was like 750w pretty much no matter what I did (trained or untrained).
It's the same with running, I can pretty much fill the distances in between 5k -hm on predicted pace, but I doubt I could run 600-800m at what now my 1500m pace comes out at. In fact, I know I can't. But , the good news as someone mentioned , threshold is easily trainable, it seems. On top of that, managing training loads etc happens to work really well (if done correctly) around these paces. So if you stick to it, I would say more people than not, will make the big gains long term.
Final thing, FWIW, I think the best gauge of talent was when you were a kid. Here in the UK we run cross country as almost a punishment in PE at school. I wasn't over weight as a kid, played football, but wasn't great in these races. Worth remembering I think those "races" are a good talent spotter, as nobody ran or trained (like nobody at that age here) and I used to finish just under halfway in the field, maybe 70 out of 120 would be a normal result for me. Anecdotal, but indicates I was never even remotely spotted or picked up like the faster kids were to maybe taken their running further and actually train. I wasn't fat or anything really when I started running 2.5 years ago and suddenly was a sub 20 runner on little training. It took a while to get there and even for a lot of months I was slow, doing 5k time trials in maybe 24 ish. It took me a while to get sub 20 and then just as long again to grind myself down further.
Anyway, good to see some life into this thread, still going strong!
It is obvious that Sirpoc is very slow twitch. These runner types thrive on lots of threshold type work, and don't need much faster stuff. A more fast twitch runner needs the faster stuff, and will get easily fatigued on such a volume of threshold work. Of course the consistent weekly volume, regardless of make up, is very important.
It is obvious that Sirpoc is very slow twitch. These runner types thrive on lots of threshold type work, and don't need much faster stuff. A more fast twitch runner needs the faster stuff, and will get easily fatigued on such a volume of threshold work. Of course the consistent weekly volume, regardless of make up, is very important.
So what would you recommend for fast twitch types - polarised easy/hard? I've never seen a consensus on that.
It is obvious that Sirpoc is very slow twitch. These runner types thrive on lots of threshold type work, and don't need much faster stuff. A more fast twitch runner needs the faster stuff, and will get easily fatigued on such a volume of threshold work. Of course the consistent weekly volume, regardless of make up, is very important.
IMO, the whole fast twitch/slow twitch thing is way overblown. If you are truly doing these workouts at sub-threshold, they’re repeatable. For the fast twitch athlete (okay, I’ll bite) it might be better to do 2x sub threshold and replace the third sub threshold with hills. In my experience, middle distance runners struggle with fatigue from threshold work because they do it way too fast. They’re more speed based, so threshold feels slow to them, and they run it too fast. They probably are disproportionately under trained aerobically, and their threshold is slower than expected.
I ran 18:36 over the summer then had some time out with injury.
Been running again for the past 6 weeks doing 30 mpw. Did 3x1 mile this week in 6:22, 6:21, 6:27 and my regular runs were 8:30-9:15 pace (a lot of it was running in the dark so I was slower than usual).
So where do I go from here? Do I keep doing the mile repeats or should I throw in some 12x400 workouts at 5:30-6:00? (this is what I did previously for a 17:53).
I ran 18:36 over the summer then had some time out with injury.
Been running again for the past 6 weeks doing 30 mpw. Did 3x1 mile this week in 6:22, 6:21, 6:27 and my regular runs were 8:30-9:15 pace (a lot of it was running in the dark so I was slower than usual).
So where do I go from here? Do I keep doing the mile repeats or should I throw in some 12x400 workouts at 5:30-6:00? (this is what I did previously for a 17:53).
This post indicates you haven't read the thread. I know it's long, but it's worth it. "Throwing in" 12x400 is probably the absolute opposite of anything you will find in this thread, albeit evolving as time went on.
I've no doubt this thread will continue to live on, as it's possibly the best thread for training advice for the vast majority of runners. I'm interested if sirpoc and the podcast is happening? It would round this off nicely , it was a good idea. Conversations about running I saw mentioned, maybe someone could reach out to those guys? It hosted a number of the other Norwegian chats.