Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

That's just a weekly threshold session which everyone's always done, not the same as the what this thread's about. When you were running before did you not do tempo runs, cruise intervals, etc.?

I’ve read about 30 pages of this but it’s 2am and I have a 9 am lecture in the morning so sorry if this has already been answered!

Im in 14:30 shape but never ran a race half or marathon, so going to take these numbers off of vdot calculator (it’s fairly accurate). Running in kms, but converts to 80 ish miles a week.

Lactic strips are also very expensive for me, so I would ideally need to be doing this based on treadmill pace and HR! I saw the part about doing doubles slower than the threshold paces for singles..so would this be about right?

Tuesday:

AM: 5 x 2k @ MP

PM: 10 x 1k @ HMP

Thursday:

AM: 5x 2k @ MP

PM: 6 x Mile @ HMP

With the added bonus of being able to switch out one of the PM sessions for 25 x 400 around 97% CV if needed.

Im self coached and the progress of the gentleman who released all the info here has peaked my interest. It’s seriously impressive.

Do you think there is a limit to the TSS/Load one should get from a sub-threshold workout? If I am going off pace and distance/time intervals, should I try to keep the overall TSS/Load around 75-85? I've been around 75-85 per session so far, which includes a 1.75-mile warmup and 1.5-mile cool-down. I'm planning to increase the interval time for each session, as my HR has been well below threshold, but am now wondering if TSS/Load is a better indicator of how well the workout is goin than max HR per interval. I really need to get a lactate meter, but can't decide between the Lactate Plus or Pro 2 or if I'll regret the purchase when I have a recent 5k time trial I'm using. Should one trust the paces and load in place of a lactate meter, or should I just grab the meter and get to the bottom of things? Starting to think TSS/Load might be a better indicator than HR for workout quality, though the amount of warmup and cooldown running certainly skews the overall TSS/Load vale.

Has anyone come up with the idea to test as would be 'a double threshold' but still a single threshold? I guess that way it could be more mlleage in just one daily session devided in two sets with longer rest between.A brilliant idea I think. Then the workout can look like e.g first 10 x 1000m at threshold followed by 30 min easy walk/ jog and then directly e.g 15 x 400m at threshold. Then it's no need for double threshold when the runner gets enough rest between the two sets. Brilliant!

Do you just accept the reality of outdoor temp and its affect on your workouts during the summer, or do you move runs indoor and into the treadmill during these months? I'm also in a very hot and humid climate, and really have to slow things down for many months out of the year. I've always just dealt with it but stayed outdoors, but thinking maybe I should move things indoors moving forward.

I’m only getting about 60-65 TSS score on my sub t workouts. Am I doing something wrong since you guys are getting higher values? Usually I do something like 6x6 min or 3x12 min with 10 min easy on either side. Would appreciate some insight TIA

From KI’s training it seems he does way more than 20% hard running. It’s closer to 25-29% of total volume as an average over the past 8 weeks including threshold miles and hill reps.
Jakobs training ‘plan’ published with 181km of running also seems to include north of 50kms threshold/hills.
So does the 80/20 rule not really apply here. Is it because its mostly threshold work, rather than much harder work? I’m kinda intrigued if anyone has any answers

Excellent thread. I have two questions: My first question is how to adopt the 3 E + 3 sub-t + 1 LR a week strategy to a marathon build-up/plan. Would one just shift Saturday's sub-t workout into the LR to make it a LR work-out? What would that LR work-out look like? Second, does anyone in this thread do the hill workout often prescribed by the Ingebrigtsen or is that going to be too taxing to be worth it as well?

Low mileage turned me gay

I've had a lot of success with the hill workout. My 3k pr went from 12:XX to 9:5X while doing one threshold + one hill workout per week in a matter of two years. I even had low iron for much of this time so my pr's could have much better.

Every other week I like to swap out one of the T sessions with a more traditional hill without. Something like 12x1 or 10x2 minutes. Seeing good results so far and breaks up the monotony a bit.

Hey Curious1. I recently spoke with sirpoc84 about the TSS score range and his thoughts. He and I have both been seeing a range of about 75-85 TSS, but my workouts included 3.25 miles of easy running (1.75 warmup and 1.5 cool-down), so too much of the load was coming from easy running. I'm going to be doing 1.25 miles for warmup and 1 mile for cool-down moving forward, and adjust interval time/distance in order to find the combo that puts me in that 75-85 TSS per workout range.

I just ran a 5k trial yesterday and PR'd, so I'll be working with updated and faster paces, which is why I want to start with 30 minutes of intervals each workout and hopefully move toward 36 minutes per workout. I figure if my fitness improves as I use my new paces, I'll naturally need to add reps, time, or distance in order to achieve a similar TSS score for the same pace. I'd started to run faster paces this past week due to not hitting the right % of threshold HR, which prompted me to do a 5k trial. But I will never again increase the pace without getting a new 5k trial PR, and will instead add time, distance, or reps.

I'm gonna start sticking to paces based on threshold pace from a VDOT or other Daniels-style calculator instead of max HR during an interval rep. So, I'll be using the 75-85 TSS score to assess whether I'm going too easy or too hard. My HR just seems to go all over the place to trust it as the primary metric, but I'll certainly be checking it at the end of reps just to be sure I'm not going over the HR threshold. But I really am starting to believe that using a recent time trial to calculate threshold pace, using updated paces based on that time trial, monitoring TSS, and possibly grabbing a lactate meter will be the best way forward. In lieu of a lactate meter, I'll rely more on recent trial or race PR, updated paces, and 75-85 TSS as my guiding light. I'm also hoping that if I hit 85 TSS one day, that I stay below that on the other two days to get a 3-workout average closer to 75-80 TSS.

I know, I went way off topic, but I hope some of what I've said here helps.

It's a combination of both for me. I do any workout with reps longer than 1.6 km on the treadmill, and do the second workout outdoors and accept that it will be slower.

I highly recommend moving your most important session indoors during the extreme weather. I've had great success over this past summer using it.

Thanks for your input jiggy! How have you decided what your most important workout has been up to this point?

I still have so much to figure out, such as identifying key workouts of the bunch. On one hand, I've seen folks mention the importance of focusing on strengths, such that a former sprinter (aka me) might get more out of the 1k/3-minute reps vs the 3k/10-minute reps. On the other hand, I've seen it mentioned that focusing on your weakness might be the key, so that I would flip the previous scenario and focus more on the longer intervals to build aerobic fitness a bit more.

Because I'm unsure which approach is wiser, I've opted to just cycle between 3-min, 6-min, and 10-min reps, and have enjoyed them all. Definitely keeps things from being to mundane. Due to my lack of 5k speed, I don't hit 1k/2k/3k for these reps, and thus time is my focus.

I don't enjoy the treadmill at all, but maybe it'll be okay for workouts since I find the faster speeds more enjoyable. Easy runs on the treadmill are the worst, and I always feel like I'm moving faster for a given pace than I am outdoors. But yeah, in these brutal southern summers, paces come way down, and that can be terrible for consistency. I am certainly enjoying the weather lately!

I do think that shorter intervals work better for some, and longer for others.

Wondering if sprinter types should maybe go down to 800m reps?

At my current level of distance fitness, my 3-4-minute runs would be between 600 and 800m lol. This is why I'm leaning toward seeing if I can hit 4 minutes for the shorter intervals so I am closer to 1k. Seems like 600m is so close to 400m, and some reported feeling more beat up after the 400m workouts than the 1k and up stuff. I could always mix it up and do 3-minute 600's for more reps, and 4-minute 800's for fewer reps from time to time. We'll see how I feel the next time that workout rolls around lol. I've got 6-8-minute reps up next (my shorter 2k's, basically). I need to get a lactate meter and learn what distance/time works best to hit the right levels without going over.

To be honest, I haven't.

I just keep rotating a bunch of workouts that have been doing the job.

Anywhere from 400 m to 3 km reps. On the treadmill I haven't done anything shorter than 1.5 km reps.

I think if you're looking for a wise approach, it would be to:

1) Do what you can repeat consistently.

2) Find a combination that you enjoy.

3) Do vary between duration length to allow faster speed at shorter distances.

Wow, what a thread!

So it's the Olympics next year, GB V Norway in the 1500.......

However , the big race I want to see is Norway v GB, KI head to head with sirpoc(I think he's a Brit, right?!) Forget Jakob v Jake we need king of the hobby jogger method to be decided!

Some other guys he speaks to more might know more, but looks like according to Strava sirpoc84 breaks 1:15 for the half, 1:14:2x? Hard to know with Strava what is accurate. But based on the training simplicity of this thread, simply remarkable and almost unbelievable, if accurate.